Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Vaccine mandates for all government workers

Collapse

300x250 Mobile

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Vaccine mandates for all government workers

    Good Day all. do you all think it will be a good idea for all people who work for the local , state and federal government including LE and fire fighters must get the vaccine . would you feel more safe knowing that all your co workers have the vaccine

  • #2
    The "One Size Fits All" mantra does not work. But it is how the Federal Government reacts. You can't mandate for everyone to get a vaccine due to there being too many variables. For example, immunocompromised individuals cannot be given a vaccine, it could kill them. Or people who suffer from autoimmune disease and so on. COVID kills, YES, but it kills a certain demographic of people, not everyone. Therefore, the intelligent way to combat that would be to identify who that certain demographic is and go after those folks.

    That certain demographic seems to be the obese, elderly and the infirm. They seem to be getting hit hard by this virus. They have a way higher likelihood of dying if they contract COVID. So people who fall into those categories should be concerned. If their bodies can withstand a vaccine they should get it. But, you can't mandate it because you don't know that individuals health profile. This is why a decision to get a vaccine should be between a person and their doctor only.

    Something to think about, if you fall into one of the categories of people who are dying from this, you can't expect the world to protect YOU by getting the vaccine. In a free society, such as America, there will be risk. If you take risk away, you no longer have a free society. The world is a dangerous place, you could die in any type of scenario, but you mitigate that by protecting yourself. For example, you look both ways before you cross a street. You cannot leave that responsibility in the hands of others. It is kinda like defensive driving. A good driver, drives in anticipation of another driver who may or may not run a red light. That is why you look both ways into the intersection before entering said intersection when your light turns green. It sucks and it shouldn't have to be that way, because if everyone just obeyed the law you would not have to drive defensively. But we all know that is not how life works.

    So the people out there that cry about the unvaccinated not getting vaxxed and putting all the other people in danger is a joke. For one, if the vaccine worked, you should not have to worry about an unvaccinated person spreading their COVID germs. Plus, you don't know what that unvaccinated person's health profile may be. And, if you really hate the unvaccinated people, then according to the mainstream media and the "science" they are gonna die eventually when they contract COVID anyway, so you should be happy.

    No, I do not believe in mandating first responders to get the vaccine. Each person is different and may respond differently to the vaccine. It should be a decision that they may make between them and their doctor.

    Comment


    • #3
      So no Polio, no HEP, no Tetanus vax either…

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by CCCSD View Post
        So no Polio, no HEP, no Tetanus vax either…
        Those aren't mandatory, like the COVID vaccine is being mandatorily implemented. You can receive an exemption pretty easily from those vaccines. Also, those vaccines actually work. They were studied on humans in clinical trials for years before receiving full FDA approval and being released on the general public. Also, no one is going around asking you for your Polio, Hep and Tetanus VAX card in order for you to buy, sell, work or trade. Think about the Antrax vaccine debacle back in 2005. Below is a great article on why it is dangerous to release a vaccine without full long term study of its effects on humans, and it is a CNN article no less.

        Past vaccine disasters show why rushing a Covid-19 vaccine now would be 'colossally stupid' - CNN

        You may argue, that one of the vaccines received FDA approval so.....Uh, I know you know, that political persuasion can be very persuasive in this day and age. A normal vaccine takes a VERY long time of clinical trials before FDA normally approves of a new vaccine. So what changed so suddenly from that practice when it came to the COVID vaccine? Maybe reading between the lines on this one might be beneficial.

        Also, does it not concern you how the government has pushed this vaccine onto the population with such aggression. If we were members of the military I could see that happening, but the general public??? When have you ever been enticed to take an experimental vaccine by winning a vaccine lottery, for example? Or a free case of beer? Or free popcorn at the movies and so on? If something is so good, you shouldn't have to convince the populace of its greatness by handing out freebies. Also, when has a vaccine been free? Usually, the insurance companies pay for that. Again, if it is so good and effective, people would be lining up in droves to spend their own darn money to get it. And when has the government enticed businesses to block people from exercising their freedom to buy, sell or trade? There are doctors now refusing patient care to people who aren't vaccinated. What happens to people that cannot take the vaccine for medical reasons and now cannot even see their doctor anymore.

        Before you argue about how some places are allowing people to religiously exempt or medically exempt themselves. First read up on a few articles about how numerous individuals have been denied their exemptions for no apparent legit reason and have been fired with no ability to appeal. That is the reason for the lawsuit going on in Oregon as we speak. First responders are being mandated to take the vaccine or face termination (no exemption).

        Oregon police, firefighters sue Gov. Kate Brown over vaccination mandate | Fox News

        The funny thing is, liberal governors and legislatures/businesses seem to be the ones touting this mandatory vaccine stuff the hardest. But as I recall, their favorite mantra is "My body my choice." Hhhmmm, wonder why that mantra is tossed out the door when it comes to taking a vaccine?
        Last edited by SOCAleo; 09-06-2021, 02:16 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          So no one said that they are mandatory for everyone. It's being mention for everyone in certain positions. Example doctors, nurses, EMS, LEO, etc. No one is required to work as one of those professions.

          Jacobson v. Massachusetts says its "legal".

          Hell... There have been supreme court cases that say the government can make you sterile in order to keep you from making mentally challenged offspring. (Look it up)

          And for all of you that have given a seat belt ticket...Click or ticket ticket isn't 100% to protect the driver. It's to keep down the financial burden associated with the hospitals, insurance, and lawsuits the rest of us have to put up with. No shirt, no shoes, no service was never an issue being plasterd on the door of Burger King.

          Change can suck. But it's inevitable.

          Comment


          • #6
            Vaccinations ARE mandatory in certain fields…and schools.
            That includes the Flu Vaccination.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by SOCAleo View Post
              So the people out there that cry about the unvaccinated not getting vaxxed and putting all the other people in danger is a joke. For one, if the vaccine worked, you should not have to worry about an unvaccinated person spreading their COVID germs. Plus, you don't know what that unvaccinated person's health profile may be. And, if you really hate the unvaccinated people, then according to the mainstream media and the "science" they are gonna die eventually when they contract COVID anyway, so you should be happy.
              Well, it's not quite that simple. If people refused to get vaccinated and then either recover or die at home, then that's their choice. But if the unvaccinated are wasting resources, driving up health care costs, clogging up emergency rooms, filling up ICU beds and calling dibs on ventilators, then that's an issue that potentially impacts everyone. The person with the heart attack or stroke or sepsis may be dying in the parking lot waiting to be triaged or for a bed to open up, and the person with the fracture or acute appendicitis may just have to be in pain an extra day or two before they can be seen. Cancer screenings, preventative services, "elective" surgeries, etc. are all put on hold because the hospital systems (and morgues, funeral homes, cemeteries, etc.) in some areas are overwhelmed.

              New Jersey went through this early on in the pandemic, and it's no joke. Some people waited days for the bodies of their loved ones to be picked up from their homes. Not all of them were Covid patients.

              I don't believe people should be forced to get the vaccine. But they should realize that their personal choices DO impact everyone else (unless they are willing to recuperate or die at home without medical intervention).

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by BlueLou View Post
                So no one said that they are mandatory for everyone. It's being mention for everyone in certain positions. Example doctors, nurses, EMS, LEO, etc. No one is required to work as one of those professions.

                Jacobson v. Massachusetts says its "legal".

                Hell... There have been supreme court cases that say the government can make you sterile in order to keep you from making mentally challenged offspring. (Look it up)

                And for all of you that have given a seat belt ticket...Click or ticket ticket isn't 100% to protect the driver. It's to keep down the financial burden associated with the hospitals, insurance, and lawsuits the rest of us have to put up with. No shirt, no shoes, no service was never an issue being plasterd on the door of Burger King.

                Change can suck. But it's inevitable.
                Nowhere did I say that this mandate is not legal, or will not pass court muster, what I said is, "One size does not fit all."

                You said at this point it is not mandatory for everyone. But I know you can see where the "wind is shifting." It is swiftly becoming a mandatory thing for everyone. As I mentioned above, there are doctors now refusing to see unvaccinated people. Businesses in New York City for example are requiring vaccination before entering. The Biden Administration is pressuring businesses throughout the US to do the same as New York.

                There is talk now how in order to fly on an airplane you must be vaccinated (not required yet, but soon). You can't go on a cruise without being vaccinated. Should I go on?

                In regard to certain employees being mandated certain vaccines, I agree. Some vaccines are smart to obtain in certain career fields, but again, those vaccines have been studied and gone through rigorous trials for years prior to being FDA approved. They are not experimental, with unknown long term side effects, such as the COVID vaccine.

                Additionally, I do not recall signing employment forms when I was hired, that stated I will be required to put a foreign experimental substance into my body in order to be employed. I signed forms like that when I joined the military, but not civilian work. Pandemic or not, there are labor protections (hence the reason for unions) that eventually will make their way to court (think the Oregon first responders lawsuit I linked to in the above post) and be slapped down.

                You talk about financial burden. The majority of people who get COVID recover. Currently the mortality rate in the US is 1.6%.

                Mortality Analyses - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center (jhu.edu)

                Most people do not get hospitalized either. They suffer flu like symptoms and then get better. But if you want to talk about hospitalizations, vaccinated people are being hospitalized too and again they are members of that certain demographic I spoke of in my first post. Those same people die of the flu very often as well. Financially, what these employment places should be thinking about, is the possible long term side affects of the vaccine and how it will blow up their worker's comp insurance claims. Agencies will be on the hook, financially, big time.

                Changes are coming, you are right. The right way do this, is to have all new hires sign a form for COVID vaccines as a condition of employment. But union protected employees who were already hired can not be forced to do so. You can't go back and fix something that has already been agreed upon in a employment contract.

                Ultimately, find the demographic of people who most likely will suffer the worst from this and focus on them.
                Last edited by SOCAleo; 09-06-2021, 07:27 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by not.in.MY.town View Post

                  Well, it's not quite that simple. If people refused to get vaccinated and then either recover or die at home, then that's their choice. But if the unvaccinated are wasting resources, driving up health care costs, clogging up emergency rooms, filling up ICU beds and calling dibs on ventilators, then that's an issue that potentially impacts everyone. The person with the heart attack or stroke or sepsis may be dying in the parking lot waiting to be triaged or for a bed to open up, and the person with the fracture or acute appendicitis may just have to be in pain an extra day or two before they can be seen. Cancer screenings, preventative services, "elective" surgeries, etc. are all put on hold because the hospital systems (and morgues, funeral homes, cemeteries, etc.) in some areas are overwhelmed.

                  New Jersey went through this early on in the pandemic, and it's no joke. Some people waited days for the bodies of their loved ones to be picked up from their homes. Not all of them were Covid patients.

                  I don't believe people should be forced to get the vaccine. But they should realize that their personal choices DO impact everyone else (unless they are willing to recuperate or die at home without medical intervention).
                  I see your point and to some degree agree with you. However, that same logic can be argued for obese people, or smokers or drug users. I hate the fact that my medical insurance premium increases every year because I am on a group health plan. So between my employer and me we are both paying around $2000 a month for insurance. I probably go and see a doctor maybe once or twice in a year. Why do I have to pay those high amounts, well because there are people in my group plan that go to the doctor daily. Or are hospitalized for various medical conditions. A lot of it is due to their own bad decisions in life. Why does no one stand up and demand those types of people change their behaviors in order to alleviate the medical care system? Or better yet, why aren't they refused service at the fast food restaurant, or the liquor store?

                  Still, some people who have received the vaccine are still being hospitalized. I can see making the COVID vaccine a requirement if it was anything like the polio vaccine, which virtually wiped out polio, but it is not.
                  Last edited by SOCAleo; 09-06-2021, 06:57 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CCCSD View Post
                    Vaccinations ARE mandatory in certain fields…and schools.
                    That includes the Flu Vaccination.
                    Exemptions are pretty easy to get for school children, trust me on that. The other mandatory vaccines you speak of, are part of a condition of employment. Meaning, you signed a form stating specifically to you that you will be required to be vaccinated with certain vaccines. COVID vaccines were never part of a condition of employment for a vast majority of first responders. And as I spoke of in an earlier post, those mandated vaccines have gone through years of clinical trials, where the long term side affects were studied and a non politically persuaded FDA approved them.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      A year before covid, a measles outbreak ran through the orthodox communities in Brooklyn and Rockland county NY. There were mandatory vaccinations ordered, court cases and rulings. I'm attaching a NY Times article that gives a pretty good background about past mandatory orders and even a supreme court ruling on the subject. Interesting reading.

                      https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/09/h...-brooklyn.html
                      Last edited by BNWS; 09-06-2021, 10:03 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SOCAleo View Post

                        Exemptions are pretty easy to get for school children, trust me on that. The other mandatory vaccines you speak of, are part of a condition of employment. Meaning, you signed a form stating specifically to you that you will be required to be vaccinated with certain vaccines. COVID vaccines were never part of a condition of employment for a vast majority of first responders. And as I spoke of in an earlier post, those mandated vaccines have gone through years of clinical trials, where the long term side affects were studied and a non politically persuaded FDA approved them.
                        So you will continue to be part of the problem…because FEELZ.
                        Nice.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by BNWS View Post
                          A year before covid a measles outbreak ran through the orthodox communities in Brooklyn and Rockland county NY. There were mandatory vaccinations ordered, court cases and rulings. I'm attaching a NY Times article that gives a pretty good background about past mandatory orders and even a supreme court ruling on the subject. Interesting reading.

                          https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/09/h...-brooklyn.html
                          Nowhere in my posts did I say that the mandates were illegal, or would not get through the courts. However, I think forcing employees to take The COVID vaccine as a condition of employment, when their employment contract never specifically mentioned taking that vaccine, may be an issue.

                          Also, there should be exemptions allowed. Some employers/businesses are not allowing exemptions at all, this is dangerous!

                          Comment


                          • BNWS
                            BNWS commented
                            Editing a comment
                            My post was not directed at you. I posted it to add to the conversation and to show that there is case law regarding vaccinations and quarantines and it seemed to stand up legally quite recently before covid.

                          • SOCAleo
                            SOCAleo commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Copy that, my bad.

                        • #14
                          Originally posted by SOCAleo View Post

                          Nowhere did I say that this mandate is not legal, or will not pass court muster, what I said is, "One size does not fit all."
                          Mmmk... So your saying it would be legal but not carried put ethically?

                          Originally posted by SOCAleo View Post
                          You said at this point it is not mandatory for everyone. But I know you can see where the "wind is shifting." It is swiftly becoming a mandatory thing for everyone. As I mentioned above, there are doctors now refusing to see unvaccinated people. Businesses in New York City for example are requiring vaccination before entering. The Biden Administration is pressuring businesses throughout the US to do the same as New York.
                          I don't see a problem with the wind taking this in the mandatory vaccines direction at this time. As a society we have accepted Doctors to be the authorities on health. In their fields of course. We are now deciding that people who googled up information are the new authorities? Fine I'll take it... let that doctor at the least feel comfortable in his own office that he pays a lease for. I mean we just voided his degree.

                          Originally posted by SOCAleo View Post
                          There is talk now how in order to fly on an airplane you must be vaccinated (not required yet, but soon). You can't go on a cruise without being vaccinated. Should I go on?
                          Wrong tree. Yes, this should be IMO. As the mask requirement goes, as long as you are physically able to comply you should. (My opinions are my own and do not represent my employer or how I conduct my job )

                          Originally posted by SOCAleo View Post
                          In regard to certain employees being mandated certain vaccines, I agree. Some vaccines are smart to obtain in certain career fields, but again, those vaccines have been studied and gone through rigorous trials for years prior to being FDA approved. They are not experimental, with unknown long term side effects, such as the COVID vaccine.


                          Additionally, I do not recall signing employment forms when I was hired, that stated I will be required to put a foreign experimental substance into my body in order to be employed. I signed forms like that when I joined the military, but not civilian work. Pandemic or not, there are labor protections (hence the reason for unions) that eventually will make their way to court (think the Oregon first responders lawsuit I linked to in the above post) and be slapped down.
                          Ok... Again you are comparing your understanding of the vaccine with the CDC, FDA, WHO, and an army of organizations with more science degrees than I can count. I am not implying that you are not a very educated person. However since this is Officer.com we are posting on I will assume they know what they are doing better than what you and I can understand.

                          I think your mixing your fruits together with Labor Unions. Unions help mediate the understanding of established labor laws and interpretation of what is in a labor contract. If it's not in the contract it falls to good old labor laws. I doubt many contracts mention global pandemics.

                          Originally posted by SOCAleo View Post
                          You talk about financial burden. The majority of people who get COVID recover. Currently the mortality rate in the US is 1.6%.

                          Mortality Analyses - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center (jhu.edu)

                          Most people do not get hospitalized either. They suffer flu like symptoms and then get better. But if you want to talk about hospitalizations, vaccinated people are being hospitalized too and again they are members of that certain demographic I spoke of in my first post. Those same people die of the flu very often as well. Financially, what these employment places should be thinking about, is the possible long term side affects of the vaccine and how it will blow up their worker's comp insurance claims. Agencies will be on the hook, financially, big time.
                          What is the number of deaths and the number of hospitalized? ICU and not please. It might sound more impressive than saying "one point six". Better yet, come to a major city, walk to the nearest major hospital and tell them you highly doubt there is an overload of resources due to the pandemic. Ask for a tour.


                          Originally posted by SOCAleo View Post
                          Changes are coming, you are right. The right way do this, is to have all new hires sign a form for COVID vaccines as a condition of employment. But union protected employees who were already hired can not be forced to do so. You can't go back and fix something that has already been agreed upon in a employment contract.

                          Ultimately, find the demographic of people who most likely will suffer the worst from this and focus on them.
                          Yeah again if it's not written in your labor contract "cannot be required during global pandemic to get vaccine" you got a hell of hard time using the union.. Better just getting a lawyer.

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            Originally posted by BlueLou View Post

                            Mmmk... So your saying it would be legal but not carried put ethically?

                            Yes, it may be legal, but there must be exemptions for people.

                            I don't see a problem with the wind taking this in the mandatory vaccines direction at this time. As a society we have accepted Doctors to be the authorities on health. In their fields of course. We are now deciding that people who googled up information are the new authorities? Fine I'll take it... let that doctor at the least feel comfortable in his own office that he pays a lease for. I mean we just voided his degree.

                            There are doctors out there that are touting the efficacy of the vaccine and how great it is, you are correct. But, there are also doctors out there that caution its use, due to the lack of long term testing. Which doctors do we listen to? The logical thing to do is to look at past practice. Past practice has always had clinical trials to test long term effects. This particular vaccine has not gone through those tests. Its a gamble, and hey I'll be the first to congratulate the pharmaceutical companies for a great new vaccine if there are no long term effects. You can't fault me for being cautious though.

                            Wrong tree. Yes, this should be IMO. As the mask requirement goes, as long as you are physically able to comply you should. (My opinions are my own and do not represent my employer or how I conduct my job )

                            Wrong tree? I was responding to your previous comment, where you mentioned that the vaccine is not mandated for the general public. I was mentioning how, yea you are right, but you can see where this is going. I mentioned flying and going on a cruise to show you where the "winds are blowing." It is rapidly becoming mandatory for everyone with exemptions not allowed. Not allowing exemptions is bad!!!

                            Ok... Again you are comparing your understanding of the vaccine with the CDC, FDA, WHO, and an army of organizations with more science degrees than I can count. I am not implying that you are not a very educated person. However since this is Officer.com we are posting on I will assume they know what they are doing better than what you and I can understand.

                            Kinda like Fauci right? Follow the science? That guy has flip flopped on all his recommendations. Don't believe me? Watch this montage video I linked to below. All of the agencies you speak of have changed their tune several times. But we are all supposed to blindly follow them as if they completely know what they are talking about, right??? Just because they have degrees? They call this the "novel corona virus" for a reason. None of us really know how to respond to it. I say the same with the vaccine.

                            Flip Flop Fauci: A compilation - Bing video

                            I think your mixing your fruits together with Labor Unions. Unions help mediate the understanding of established labor laws and interpretation of what is in a labor contract. If it's not in the contract it falls to good old labor laws. I doubt many contracts mention global pandemics.

                            Well there are several lawsuits from various unions going on as we speak. They are trying to fight against these mandates. One of which I have mentioned in several posts. If there was not any merit to them, I don't think they would have been brought forward. My point is, you and I are not going to sit on this forum and litigate this. I don't know what the outcome will be and neither do you. But on the face of it, there appears to be a case that can be made.

                            Police, firefighters sue Oregon governor over COVID-19 vaccine mandate (yahoo.com)​​

                            What is the number of deaths and the number of hospitalized? ICU and not please. It might sound more impressive than saying "one point six". Better yet, come to a major city, walk to the nearest major hospital and tell them you highly doubt there is an overload of resources due to the pandemic. Ask for a tour.

                            Not disputing that there is an uptick in hospitalizations, but there is a correlation between the uptick and the new delta variant, so that is probably why. Not a correlation of the uptick because of the unvaccinated, although the media is spinning it that way. Also, I would caution you on believing the media hype on how hospitals are being overrun with patients. Just recently the media has had to back pedal on false claims they made. The claims about how Florida hospitals are overrun and how they are overrun with unvaccinated people. And it was all due to Governor DeSantis' anti-vax rhetoric. It was all BS, don't believe me? Read the linked article.

                            Fact-Checking 4 Claims About COVID-19 in Florida Spike (dailysignal.com)

                            Yeah again if it's not written in your labor contract "cannot be required during global pandemic to get vaccine" you got a hell of hard time using the union.. Better just getting a lawyer.

                            Well we will see how those current lawsuits play out. I think in the end, agencies will be allowed to mandate the vaccine, but will be forced to implement a more liberal exemption process.

                            Comment

                            MR300x250 Tablet

                            Collapse

                            What's Going On

                            Collapse

                            There are currently 2854 users online. 198 members and 2656 guests.

                            Most users ever online was 158,966 at 04:57 AM on 01-16-2021.

                            Welcome Ad

                            Collapse
                            Working...
                            X