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  • #46
    Originally posted by premium View Post
    Palin talks to god?! My goodness this lady is a psycho.
    So, everyone who has ever prayed to a god must be psycho too? That'd put you in a very small minority in the world....
    "All that is, ever
    Ever was, will be, ever
    Twisting, turning, through the never."--Metallica

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    • #47
      You missed my next post in response to southflaguy.

      I did find another church. I became a Quaker. Quakers are not concerned with salvation for an afterlife and they don't have rituals like baptism.

      As for your last statement, oh please, show me proof of that. Now, if you want to include everyone who is not christian in your "atheism" you might be close to right. But God or gods/goddesses has been the excuse for many wars since the beginning of humanity.

      Killing for God has been a theme in Judeo/Christian history also from the earliest beginnings of Judaism, if the Old Testament has any truth at all in it. And then, Christians started in on it with the Holy Roman Empire, forcing the heathens to convert or die.

      European imperialists used the spreading of Christianity as an excuse for taking over and plundering the "New World."

      God & the Bible were used as a justification on both sides of the American Civil War.

      I could go on. Most wars ever fought by Christians used some form of their religious belief to justify actions.
      Originally posted by plainclothes View Post

      Originally posted by rubyrose View Post
      When I was 14 I went to a Baptist Church with a friend from high school. I ended up getting "saved."

      In order to get baptized I had to go through 8 weeks of preparation through night classes.

      One day the teacher (an assistant minister) was talking about how God is always on the side of Christians in war. Because war did not fit with my idea of Christian love, nor least of all the Beatitude from the Sermon on the Mount: "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God." (I had read the Bible from front page to last before I even entered this class.)

      I raised my hand to ask, in all innocence:

      "Whose side is God on when Christians are at war with each other?"

      The man sputtered and stammered. He was very angry that I was so impudent as to ask such a question. I was supposed to sit there and just accept what he said. He was the minister. What he said was the truth, and if I wanted to be a Christian I had to accept it.

      Well, that was my last day at that church. I never went back. Never got baptised. And never will.
      ****

      This is what I don't get when I hear it from people; somebody at church, or the minister, said something/gossipped/cut me off in the parking lot etc etc and now I won't go back to church or believe. Why not just go to another church? Why give up on faith altogether? There are PLENTY or churches who have classes who would totally welcome such questions. I say this because I was a skeptic and asked the hard questions, and they were welcomed. Had they not been I'd keep looking. It made my faith stronger by asking hard questions.

      Lastly, if anyone thinks many have been killed in the name of God/religion, there have been waymorekilled by atheists.
      Hatred never ceases by hatred, but by love alone is healed.
      Happiness never decreases by being shared. -- Buddhist quotation
      A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. -- Proverbs 15:1

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      • #48
        Originally posted by pvtbuddie View Post
        You did not pay attention to what she actually said. .She said, "Pray ... that ... our leaders .... are sending them out on a task that is from God." .It is accurate to say "pray that Etc., etc., etc, " does not mean "God told me Etc., etc., etc,"



        .
        Oh I see now.....a task from God????

        I won't get into this any further or god's task at hand.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Jellybean400 View Post


          I'm so glad when youre posting. It makes me miss LeanG a little less...
          Don't know who LeanG is but okay...I hope this is a good thing

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          • #50
            Originally posted by rubyrose View Post
            You missed my next post in response to southflaguy.

            I did find another church. I became a Quaker. Quakers are not concerned with salvation for an afterlife and they don't have rituals like baptism.

            As for your last statement, oh please, show me proof of that. Now, if you want to include everyone who is not christian in your "atheism" you might be close to right. But God or gods/goddesses has been the excuse for many wars since the beginning of humanity.

            Killing for God has been a theme in Judeo/Christian history also from the earliest beginnings of Judaism, if the Old Testament has any truth at all in it. And then, Christians started in on it with the Holy Roman Empire, forcing the heathens to convert or die.

            European imperialists used the spreading of Christianity as an excuse for taking over and plundering the "New World."

            God & the Bible were used as a justification on both sides of the American Civil War.

            I could go on. Most wars ever fought by Christians used some form of their religious belief to justify actions.
            O but Ruby you must understand that many of your average Christians don't have a clue that the spread of their precious religion had more to do with the "Move Of The Almighty Sword By The Hand Of MAN" than it ever did some supposed "Hand Of God". They have no idea just how evil their precious religionwas and to some degree still is.

            But of course ALL three of the "Abrahamic Religions" share some of the same traits.

            Judaism: War Evils + Oppresive in its early times until it lost power via the Greeks, Romans, etc. Now they are a faith of "peace"

            Christianity: War Evils, Oppresive, Downright Torture, Etc. in its early times until people got tired of being pushed around by the religious leaders. Now it says it's a religion of "peace' via Jesus. Even today it uses a different less violent tactic than it use to in many circles.

            Islam: Evil to this day using the SAME methods that were used in the early times of its ancestor religions (Judaism + Christianity). All three brothers have followed each others ways quite well.

            Now the middle brother Christianity has done the best job of retaining mighty power throughout the world even to this day which of course ****es off the fanatic Muslim. The Jews don't have much to say nowadays in their lack of power as they wait for this Mashiach King to come and bring them back to their rightful place as heads of the earth.

            Side Note: Christians THINK that if the Jewish Mashiach returned that somehow this would be their awesome day but little do they know that IF such a Mashiach existed the days of Christians and Muslims would not be good. Christians would be in a load of trouble and would be smitten in annihilation right along with the Muslim, Atheist, and General Non-Believer. They would be shocked at what this Maschiach would have in store because it would not be a "Rapture" but a re-establishing of a very hardcore/corrected Judaism in Yisrael from Mt. Tsyion bringing back the Mitvahs of the Tanach.

            Well that's the end of my rant! Good post Ruby!

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            • #51
              Originally posted by jshawn View Post
              O but Ruby you must understand that many of your average Christians don't have a clue that the spread of their precious religion had more to do with the "Move Of The Almighty Sword By The Hand Of MAN" than it ever did some supposed "Hand Of God". They have no idea just how evil their precious religionwas and to some degree still is.

              But of course ALL three of the "Abrahamic Religions" share some of the same traits.

              Judaism: War Evils + Oppresive in its early times until it lost power via the Greeks, Romans, etc. Now they are a faith of "peace"

              Christianity: War Evils, Oppresive, Downright Torture, Etc. in its early times until people got tired of being pushed around by the religious leaders. Now it says it's a religion of "peace' via Jesus. Even today it uses a different less violent tactic than it use to in many circles.

              Islam: Evil to this day using the SAME methods that were used in the early times of its ancestor religions (Judaism + Christianity). All three brothers have followed each others ways quite well.

              Now the middle brother Christianity has done the best job of retaining mighty power throughout the world even to this day which of course ****es off the fanatic Muslim. The Jews don't have much to say nowadays in their lack of power as they wait for this Mashiach King to come and bring them back to their rightful place as heads of the earth.

              Side Note: Christians THINK that if the Jewish Mashiach returned that somehow this would be their awesome day but little do they know that IF such a Mashiach existed the days of Christians and Muslims would not be good. Christians would be in a load of trouble and would be smitten in annihilation right along with the Muslim, Atheist, and General Non-Believer. They would be shocked at what this Maschiach would have in store because it would not be a "Rapture" but a re-establishing of a very hardcore/corrected Judaism in Yisrael from Mt. Tsyion bringing back the Mitvahs of the Tanach.

              Well that's the end of my rant! Good post Ruby!
              I never said that in the name of Christianity, many have and still do horrible things. For this, as a believer, I apologize. We were wrong for many things, and still do many things that are wrong in the name of God.

              You are also correct, that many who profess faith within the Christian system will also be surprised to see what happens when the time comes.

              Again, though, the Christian faith does not preach the spread of faith through violence, but through love. Islam is contrary to that.

              As far as Robocop's statements as to the rapture not happening, and anothe person's statements that people have predicted time again and it has failed to be accurate, see the other person's reply about the rapture being sudden, and that no one, not even Jesus knows when his second coming. Only God knows.

              As far as NR's statement in regards to the whole thing being a religious base vs another, I agree, Bush/politicians in general need to be VERY careful how and what they say over this. I actually disagreed when Bush called it a crusade, b/c it was a very poor choice of words.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by RCKoutWurGLKout View Post
                As far as Robocop's statements as to the rapture not happening, and anothe person's statements that people have predicted time again and it has failed to be accurate, see the other person's reply about the rapture being sudden, and that no one, not even Jesus knows when his second coming. Only God knows.
                That is EXACTLY what a religion that has simply been fabricated by man would say. They'd just throw up their hands no matter how many thousands of years have gone by and say "I don't know". Any one us could create our own false religion and just say "god or gods will show up one day". COME ON! That has scam written all over it!

                If this religion is really a true religion (or ANY religion) then WHY not have the confidence in your own faith to simply give a date when this god or confirmation will occur?

                NO religion gives you any such date since these are all just fabrications of a very ignorant primitive man. No one on earth can refute that.

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                • #53
                  I agree that the THRUST of the Christian message has been love and peace, but unfortunately too many who call themselves Christians have failed miserably in understanding that. Or rather, they assume that God's love and the requirement to behave towards others in a loving manner only applies to people of their own kind, and specifically only people who belong to their specific religious sect. And even then, those tend to be so authoritarian that they abuse even their own members.

                  However, I do dispute your interpretation of Islam as a violent religion.

                  I know many Muslims who are as gentle and loving as any true Christian and who are appalled at what has been done in the name of Islam. Just as there were many Christians who were appalled at the way slave owners used the Bible to justify slavery, and the Inquisition, and all of that.

                  The Jihadists have taken a message of peace and have distorted it the same way the slave owners and the Inquisitors did. Unfortunately they are many in number and possess weapons capable of killing many, and they have used their distorted view of Islam to persuade even very young people to engage in suicide bombings and the like.

                  If you were to actually study the Koran without being influenced by the Jihadists' interpretation of it, you would find a very different religion.

                  I had the pleasure of hearing a feminist Islamic scholar speak at an event for which I had responsibility for publicity. I am sorry I cannot recall her name at the moment and cannot find the documents I prepared for that -- it happened way back in 2002.

                  The fact that war-mongering is being done in the name of Islam is not evidence that the religion itself is violent, any more than the violence committed in the name of Christ throughout history means that the religion itself is violent. The Jihadists happen to be in the forefront now because those who would want our country to fight them in the name of Jesus have been kept in check by over 200 years of secular government.

                  However, when ANY person running for office claims that ANY of our wars are fought in the name of God, as a "task of God," they make it clear that the use of God (and specifically Christ) to justify violence -- so long as it is against the "heathen," is an underlying theme in our culture. I would not claim that such people are as bad as the Jihadists in appropriating a pacific message for their own use. However, that is ONLY because our institutions from the Constitution forward prevent the United States from becoming a theocracy.
                  Hatred never ceases by hatred, but by love alone is healed.
                  Happiness never decreases by being shared. -- Buddhist quotation
                  A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. -- Proverbs 15:1

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Robocop007 View Post
                    That is EXACTLY what a religion that has simply been fabricated by man would say. They'd just throw up their hands no matter how many thousands of years have gone by and say "I don't know". Any one us could create our own false religion and just say "god or gods will show up one day". COME ON! That has scam written all over it!

                    If this religion is really a true religion (or ANY religion) then WHY not have the confidence in your own faith to simply give a date when this god or confirmation will occur?

                    NO religion gives you any such date since these are all just fabrications of a very ignorant primitive man. No one on earth can refute that.
                    The reason why I don't give you a date, dear Robocop, is because it is not my place to give a date that God says no one will know but God. If I were to try to give you a date, like so many in the past have and failed, then I am not relying on a relationship with God, but merely, as you say, fabricating it. Which would you rather me, do, fabricate it by lying to you, or express to you the change in myself from the love and truth of the matter? I am not trying to convert you. By all means, believe what you want to believe, but I will continue to post to point out the discrepancies in your "assumption" of what the Christian faith truly is.

                    Ruby Rose, you are correct that I have not studied a large part of the Qu'ran. I should rephrase my statement that not all practitioners of Islam are of the extreme. I do still, from what I know, which I agree, is limited, find Islam to be a spin-off of truth from the original message brought to Mohammed from Christian missionaries.

                    Again, my attempts at posting are never to be inflammatory, or a conversion attempt at any other person here. Frankly, I know better than to try and sway anyone's mind by debating them . Usually, if you're debating they already have their own die-hard opinion, and the debate will never change that .

                    Coming from my background from a former, very similar to Robocop's belief system, I feel I have the best of both worlds, knowing where I was, and knowing what I know now. I also realize that some read this and don't know enough about either issue, and so I hope to shed light on it by someone who DOES know what they are talking about, rather than simply implying from their own anti-belief systems.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by RCKoutWurGLKout View Post
                      Coming from my background from a former, very similar to Robocop's belief system, I feel I have the best of both worlds, knowing where I was, and knowing what I know now. I also realize that some read this and don't know enough about either issue, and so I hope to shed light on it by someone who DOES know what they are talking about, rather than simply implying from their own anti-belief systems.
                      I'll agree with you about the debating thing; a person should not come into them expecting to change the other's mind. So what are these two worlds you have that you speak of? Were you a typical non-believer who now is a Christian or were you a very learned Atheist who has studied the various religions (or previously was religious then turned Atheist) who now is a Christian? Just curious that's all.

                      I believe I definitely have the best angle from my experience as an extreme/diehard Christian above many your average Sunday going Joe who has studied the Tanach & Brit Chadasha pretty deep (but not hardly deep enough compared to others out there but definitely above 90% of Christians) and now I have in recent years become an atheist (having been a hardcore Christian turned Messianic Jew turned nearly a full blown Jew).

                      It's too bad that many more Christians don't truly take the time to learn of their faith that they claim to follow (not speaking of you).

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by rubyrose View Post
                        I agree that the THRUST of the Christian message has been love and peace, but unfortunately too many who call themselves Christians have failed miserably in understanding that. Or rather, they assume that God's love and the requirement to behave towards others in a loving manner only applies to people of their own kind, and specifically only people who belong to their specific religious sect. And even then, those tend to be so authoritarian that they abuse even their own members.

                        However, I do dispute your interpretation of Islam as a violent religion.

                        I know many Muslims who are as gentle and loving as any true Christian and who are appalled at what has been done in the name of Islam. Just as there were many Christians who were appalled at the way slave owners used the Bible to justify slavery, and the Inquisition, and all of that.

                        The Jihadists have taken a message of peace and have distorted it the same way the slave owners and the Inquisitors did. Unfortunately they are many in number and possess weapons capable of killing many, and they have used their distorted view of Islam to persuade even very young people to engage in suicide bombings and the like.

                        If you were to actually study the Koran without being influenced by the Jihadists' interpretation of it, you would find a very different religion.

                        I had the pleasure of hearing a feminist Islamic scholar speak at an event for which I had responsibility for publicity. I am sorry I cannot recall her name at the moment and cannot find the documents I prepared for that -- it happened way back in 2002.

                        The fact that war-mongering is being done in the name of Islam is not evidence that the religion itself is violent, any more than the violence committed in the name of Christ throughout history means that the religion itself is violent. The Jihadists happen to be in the forefront now because those who would want our country to fight them in the name of Jesus have been kept in check by over 200 years of secular government.

                        However, when ANY person running for office claims that ANY of our wars are fought in the name of God, as a "task of God," they make it clear that the use of God (and specifically Christ) to justify violence -- so long as it is against the "heathen," is an underlying theme in our culture. I would not claim that such people are as bad as the Jihadists in appropriating a pacific message for their own use. However, that is ONLY because our institutions from the Constitution forward prevent the United States from becoming a theocracy.
                        Very true Ruby, it's all about perspective and I'm sure those peaceful Muslims can just as easily see Christianity as violent (if they wanted to follow that assumption) due to the government's use of it as their tool. Throw in the wonderful media and no wonder there are people with very skewed perspectives of what is what in the world.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by RCKoutWurGLKout View Post
                          Again, though, the Christian faith does not preach the spread of faith through violence, but through love. Islam is contrary to that.

                          O yes I'm aware that TODAY the Christian religion does not do so...at least not up front. In many circles they have a different "loving" (yeah right) version of keeping folks straight. Now in the past the spread of Christianity (which Christians can thank for helping it become the powerful/rich religion it is today) was via violence. I will say that the book that Christianity claims to be its origins indeed doesn't preach violence (at least in the Brit Chadasha/New Testament) as it leaves that for the Mashiach's return.

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                          • #58
                            http://www.religioustolerance.org/end_wrl2.htm


                            Overview:

                            Some Christians and secular individuals predicted several momentous events that they believed are related:
                            bullet The second coming of Jesus Christ, when he returns to earth after almost two millennia.
                            bullet The war of Armageddon -- a massive battle in Israel.
                            bullet The arrival on earth of the Antichrist, an evil political, military leader.
                            bullet The Tribulation, a seven year interval of great suffering and death.
                            bullet The Rapture, when Christians who have been born again -- both living and dead -- will rise into the sky towards Jesus.
                            bullet Some horrendous natural disaster.
                            bullet etc.

                            It is worth noting that all of the following predictions have failed. We expect that all of the predictions about our future will also fail.

                            horizontal rule
                            Disclaimer:

                            We offer no guarantees that the prophets listed below actually made these predictions. We have described their alleged predictions as they were reported on the Web, in newspapers, books, etc. We do not have the resources to track down original source material.

                            horizontal rule
                            Failed prophecies:
                            bullet About 30 CE: The Christian Scriptures (New Testament), when interpreted literally, appear to record many predictions by Jeshua of Nazareth (Jesus Christ) that God's Kingdom would arrive within a very short period, or was actually in the process of arriving. For example, Jesus is recorded as saying in Matthew 16:28: "...there shall be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." In Matthew 24:34, Yeshua is recorded as saying: "...This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Since the life expectancy in those days was little over 30 years, Jesus appears to have predicted his second coming sometime during the 1st century CE. It didn't happen. More details.
                            bullet About 60 CE: Interpreting the Epistles of Paul of Tarsus literally, his writings seem to imply that Jesus would return and usher in a rapture during the lifetime of persons who were living in the middle of the 1st century. More details.
                            bullet About 90 CE: Saint Clement 1 predicted that the world end would occur at any moment.
                            bullet 2nd Century CE: Prophets and Prophetesses of the Montanist movement predicted that Jesus would return sometime during their lifetime and establish the New Jerusalem in the city of Pepuza in Asia Minor.
                            bullet 365 CE: A man by the name of Hilary of Poitiers, announced that the end would happen that year. It didn't.
                            bullet 375 to 400 CE: Saint Martin of Tours, a student of Hilary, was convinced that the end would happen sometime before 400 CE.
                            bullet 500 CE: This was the first year-with-a-nice-round-number-panic. The antipope Hippolytus and an earlier Christian academic Sextus Julius Africanus had predicted Armageddon at about this year.
                            bullet 968 CE: An eclipse was interpreted as a prelude to the end of the world by the army of the German emperor Otto III.
                            bullet 992: Good Friday coincided with the Feast of the Annunciation; this had long been believed to be the event that would bring forth the Antichrist, and thus the end-times events foretold in the book of Revelation. Records from Germany report that a new sun rose in the north and that as many as 3 suns and 3 moons were fighting. There does not appear to be independent verification of this remarkable event.
                            bullet 1000-JAN-1: Many Christians in Europe had predicted the end of the world on this date. As the date approached, Christian armies waged war against some of the Pagan countries in Northern Europe. The motivation was to convert them all to Christianity, by force if necessary, before Christ returned in the year 1000. Meanwhile, some Christians had given their possessions to the Church in anticipation of the end. Fortunately, the level of education was so low that many citizens were unaware of the year. They did not know enough to be afraid. Otherwise, the panic might have been far worse than it was. Unfortunately, when Jesus did not appear, the church did not return the gifts. Serious criticism of the Church followed. The Church reacted by exterminating some heretics. Agitation settled down quickly.
                            bullet 1000-MAY: The body of Charlemagne was disinterred on Pentecost. A legend had arisen that an emperor would rise from his sleep to fight the Antichrist.
                            bullet 1005-1006: A terrible famine throughout Europe was seen as a sign of the nearness of the end.
                            bullet 1033: Some believed this to be the 1000th anniversary of the death and resurrection of Jesus. His second coming was anticipated. Jesus' actual date of execution is unknown, but is believed to be in the range of 27 to 33 CE.
                            bullet 1147: Gerard of Poehlde decided that the millennium had actually started in 306 CE during Constantine's reign. Thus, the world end was expected in 1306 CE.
                            bullet 1179: John of Toledo predicted the end of the world during 1186. This estimate was based on the alignment of many planets.
                            bullet 1205: Joachim of Fiore predicted in 1190 that the Antichrist was already in the world, and that King Richard of England would defeat him. The Millennium would then begin, sometime before 1205.
                            bullet 1284: Pope Innocent III computed this date by adding 666 years onto the date the Islam was founded.
                            bullet 1346 and later: The black plague spread across Europe, killing one third of the population. This was seen as the prelude to an immediate end of the world. Unfortunately, the Christians had previously killed a many of the cats, fearing that they might be familiars of Witches. The fewer the cats, the more the rats. It was the rat fleas that spread the black plague.
                            bullet 1496: This was approximately 1500 years after the birth of Jesus. Some mystics in the 15th century predicted that the millennium would begin during this year.
                            bullet 1524: Many astrologers predicted the imminent end of the world due to a world wide flood. They obviously had not read the Genesis story of the rainbow.
                            bullet 1533: Melchior Hoffman predicted that Jesus' return would happen a millennium and a half after the nominal date of his execution, in 1533. The New Jerusalem was expected to be established in Strasbourg, Germany. He was arrested and died in a Strasbourg jail.
                            bullet 1669: The Old Believers in Russia believed that the end of the world would occur in this year. 20 thousand burned themselves to death between 1669 and 1690 to protect themselves from the Antichrist.
                            bullet 1689: Benjamin Keach, a 17th century Baptist, predicted the end of the world for this year.
                            bullet 1736: British theologian and mathematician William Whitson predicted a great flood similar to Noah's for OCT-13 of this year.
                            bullet 1792: This was the date of the end of the world calculated by some believers in the Shaker movement.
                            bullet 1794: Charles Wesley, one of the founders of Methodism, thought Doomsday would be in this year.
                            bullet 1830: Margaret McDonald, a Christian prophetess, predicted that Robert Owen would be the Antichrist. Owen helped found New Harmony, IN.
                            bullet 1832?: Joseph Smith (1805-1844) was the founder of the Church of Christ, which became the Restorationist movement after many schisms. It now includes The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- a.k.a. the Mormons, and about a hundred other denominations and sects. He heard a voice while praying. He wrote, in Doctrines and Covenants section 130:

                            14: "I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:"

                            15: "Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter."

                            16: "I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face."

                            17: "I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time." 14

                            The year in which this event occurred is not recorded. However, one commentator suggested 1832 or earlier. 16 Smith is later recorded as having said:

                            "I prophesy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written--the Son of Man will not come in the clouds of heaven till I am eighty-five years old." 17

                            Smith would have reached the age of 85 during 1890. Unfortunately, by that year, Smith had been dead for almost a half century, having been assassinated by a mob. Note that his prophecy is ambiguous. It can be interpreted that:
                            bullet Jesus would return during 1890 (which did not materialize) or that
                            bullet 1890 would pass without Jesus' return (which did come to pass).

                            Some anti-Mormon sources quote only verses 14 and 15, and draw the former conclusion -- that Smith's prophecy failed.

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                            bullet 1843-MAR-21: William Miller, founder of the Millerite movement, predicted that Jesus would come on this date. A very large number of Christians accepted his prophecy.
                            bullet 1844-OCT-22: When Jesus did not return, Miller predicted this new date. In an event which is now called "The Great Disappointment," many Christians sold their property and possessions, quit their jobs and prepared themselves for the second coming. Nothing happened; the day came and went without incident.
                            bullet 1850: Ellen White, founder of the Seven Day Adventists movement, made many predictions of the timing of the end of the world. All failed. On 1850-JUN-27 she prophesized that only a few months remained before the end. She wrote: "My accompanying angel said, 'Time is almost finished. Get ready, get ready, get ready.' ...now time is almost finished...and what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months." 10
                            bullet 1856 or later: At Ellen White's last prediction, she said that she was shown in a vision the fate of believers who attended the 1856 SDA conference. She wrote "I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: 'Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus." 11 That is, some of the attendees would die of normal diseases; some would die from plagues at the last days, others would still be alive when Jesus came. "By the early 1900s all those who attended the conference had passed away, leaving the Church with the dilemma of trying to figure out how to explain away such a prominent prophetic failure." 12
                            bullet 1891: Mother Shipton, a 16th century mystic predicted the end of the world: "...The world to an end shall come; in eighteen hundred and eighty-one."
                            bullet 1891 or before: On 1835-FEB-14, Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon church, attended a meeting of church leaders. He said that the meeting had been called because God had commanded it. He announced that Jesus would return within 56 years -- i.e. before 1891-FEB-15. (History of the Church 2:182)
                            bullet 1914 was one of the more important estimates of the start of the war of Armageddon by the Jehovah's Witnesses (Watchtower Bible and Tract Society). They based their prophecy of 1914 from prophecy in the book of Daniel, Chapter 4. The writings referred to "seven times". The WTS interpreted each "time" as equal to 360 days, giving a total of 2520 days. This was further interpreted as representing 2520 years, measured from the starting date of 607 BCE. This gave 1914 as the target date. When 1914 passed, they changed their prediction; 1914 became the year that Jesus invisibly began his rule.
                            bullet 1914, 1915, 1918, 1920, 1925, 1941, 1975 and 1994, etc. were other dates that the Watchtower Society (WTS) or its members predicted.
                            bullet Since late in the 19th century, they had taught that the "battle of the Great Day of God Almighty" (Armageddon) would happen in 1914 CE. It didn't.
                            bullet The next major estimate was 1925. Watchtower magazine predicted: "The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in the Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914; but it would be presumptuous on the part of any faithful follower of the Lord to assume just what the Lord is going to do during that year." 6
                            bullet The Watchtower Society selected 1975 as its next main prediction. This was based on the estimate "according to reliable Bible chronology Adam was created in the year 4026 BCE, likely in the autumn of the year, at the end of the sixth day of creation." 8 They believed that the year 1975 a promising date for the end of the world, as it was the 6,000th anniversary of Adam's creation. Exactly 1,000 years was to pass for each day of the creation week. This prophecy also failed.
                            bullet The current estimate is that the end of the world as we know it will happen precisely 6000 years after the creation of Eve. 9 There is no way of knowing when this happened.
                            bullet More details on the WTS predictions.
                            bullet 1919: Meteorologist Albert Porta predicted that the conjunction of 6 planets would generate a magnetic current that would cause the sun to explode and engulf the earth on DEC-17.
                            bullet 1936: Herbert W Armstrong, founder of the Worldwide Church of God, predicted that the Day of the Lord would happen sometime in 1936. Nothing much happened that year, except for the birth of the compiler of this list -- who has been referred to as an Anti-Christ. When the prediction failed, he made a new estimate: 1975.
                            bullet 1940 or 1941: A Bible teacher from Australia, Leonard Sale-Harrison, held a series of prophesy conferences across North America in the 1930's. He predicted that the end of the world would happen in 1940 or 1941. 7
                            bullet 1948: During this year, the state of Israel was founded. Some Christians believed that this event was the final prerequisite for the second coming of Jesus. Various end of the world predictions were made in the range 1888 to 2048.
                            bullet 1953-AUG: David Davidson wrote a book titled "The Great Pyramid, Its Divine Message". In it, he predicted that the world would end in 1953-AUG.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              bullet 1957-APR: The Watchtower magazine quoted 6 a pastor from California, Mihran Ask, as saying in 1957-JAN that "Sometime between April 16 and 23, 1957, Armageddon will sweep the world! Millions of persons will perish in its flames and the land will be scorched.'
                              bullet 1959: Florence Houteff's, who was the leader of the Branch Davidians faith group, prophesied that the 1260 days mentioned in Revelation 11:3 would end and the Kingdom of David would be established on 1959-APR-22. Followers expected to die, be resurrected, and transferred to Heaven. Many sold their possessions and moved to Mt. Carmel in anticipation of the "end time". It didn't happen. The group almost did not survive; only a few dozen members remained.

                              Most Branch Davidians did die on 1993-APR-29 as a result of arson apparently ordered by their leader, David Koresh. They were not bodily resurrected -- on earth at least.
                              bullet 1960: Pi***i Smyth, a past astronomer royal of Scotland, wrote a book circa 1860 titled "Our Inheritance in the Great Pyramid." It was responsible for spreading the belief in pyramidology throughout the world. This is the belief that secrets are hidden in the dimensions of the great pyramids. He concluded from his research that the millennium would start before the end of 1960 CE.
                              bullet 1967: During the six day war, the Israeli army captured all of Jerusalem. Many conservative Christians believed that the rapture would occur quickly. However, the final Biblical prerequisite for the second coming is that the Jews resume ritual animal sacrifices in the temple at Jerusalem. That never happened.
                              bullet 1970's: The late Moses David (formerly David Berg) was the founder of the Christian religious group, The Children of God. He predicted that a comet would hit the earth, probably in the mid 1970's and destroy all life in the United States. One source indicated that he believed it would happen in 1973.
                              bullet 1972: According to an article in the Atlantic magazine, "Herbert W. Armstrong's empire suffered a serious blow when the end failed to begin in January of 1972, as Armstrong had predicted, thus bringing hardship to many people who had given most of their assets to the church in the expectation of going to Petra, where such worldly possessions would be useless." 3 According to an article in Wikipedia:

                              "The failure of this prophetic scenario to take place according to this Co-Worker letter scenario, which was often repeated over the years in print by Armstrong, may have been one of the initial reasons why the church organization began to decline as unfulfilled expectations led to great disappointment. As events unfolded, it became obvious 1972 did not have the biblical significance that the church had anticipated for nearly two decades." 15

                              bullet 1974: Charles Meade, a pastor in Daleville, IN, predicted that the end of the world will happen during his lifetime. He was born circa 1927, so the end will probably come early in the 21st century.
                              bullet 1975: Many Jehovah's Witness predicted this date. However, it was not officially recognized by the leadership.
                              bullet 1978: Chuck Smith, Pastor of Calvary Chapel in Cost Mesa, CA, predicted the rapture in 1981.
                              bullet 1980: Leland Jensen leader of a Baha'i Faith group, predicted that a nuclear disaster would happen in 1980. This would be followed by two decades of conflict, ending in the establishment of God's Kingdom on earth.
                              bullet 1981:
                              bullet Arnold Murray of the Shepherd's Chapel taught an anti-Trinitarian belief about God, and Christian Identity. Back in the 1970's, he predicted that the Antichrist would appear before 1981.
                              bullet Rev. Sun Myung Moon, founder of the Unification Church predicted that the Kingdom of Heaven would be established this year.
                              bullet 1982: Pat Robertson predicted a few years in advance that the world would end in the fall of 1982. The failure of this prophecy did not seem to adversely affect his reputation.
                              bullet 1982: Astronomers John Gribben & Setphen Plagemann predicted the "Jupiter Effect" in 1974. They wrote that when various planets were aligned on the same side of the sun, tidal forces would create solar flares, radio interruptions, rainfall and temperature disturbances and massive earthquakes. The planets did align as seen from earth, as they do regularly. Nothing unusual happened.
                              bullet 1984 to 1999: In 1983, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, later called Osho, teacher of what has been called the Rajneesh movement, is said to have predicted massive destruction on earth, including natural disasters and man-made catastrophes. Floods larger than any since Noah, extreme earthquakes, very destructive volcano eruptions, nuclear wars etc. were to happen. Tokyo, New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Bombay will all disappear. Actually, the predictions were read out by his secretary; their legitimacy is doubtful.
                              bullet 1985: Arnold Murray of the Shepherd's Chapel predicted that the war of Armageddon will start on 1985-JUN 8-9 in "a valley of the Alaskan peninsula."
                              bullet 1986: Moses David of The Children of God faith group predicted that the Battle of Armageddon would take place in 1986. Russia would defeat Israel and the United States. A worldwide Communist dictatorship would be established. In 1993, Christ would return to earth.
                              bullet 1987 to 2000: Lester Sumrall, in his 1987 book "I Predict 2000 AD" predicted that Jerusalem would be the richest city on Earth, that the Common Market would rule Europe, and that there would be a nuclear war involving Russia and perhaps the U.S. Also, he prophesized that the greatest Christian revival in the history of the church would happen: all during the last 13 years of the 20th century. All of the predictions failed.
                              bullet 1988:
                              bullet Hal Lindsey had predicted in his book "The Late, Great Planet Earth" that the Rapture was coming in 1988 - one generation or 40 years after the creation of the state of Israel. This failed prophecy did not appear to damage his reputation. He continues to write books of prophecy which sell very well indeed.
                              bullet Alfred Schmielewsky, a psychic whose stage name was "super-psychic A.S. Narayana," predicted in 1986 that the world's greatest natural disaster would hit Montreal in 1988. Sadly, his psychic abilities failed him on 1999-APR-11 when he answered the door of his home only to be shot dead by a gunman.
                              bullet 1988-MAY: A 1981 movie titled "The man who saw tomorrow" described some of Nostradamus predictions. Massive earthquakes were predicted for San Francisco and Los Angeles.
                              bullet 1988-OCT-11: Edgar Whisenaut, a NASA scientist, had published the book "88 Reasons why the Rapture will Occur in 1988." It sold over 4 million copies.
                              bullet About 1990: Peter Ruckman concluded from his analysis of the Bible that the rapture would come within a few years of 1990.

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                              References:

                              1. S.J. Gould, "Questioning the Millennium: A Rationalist's Guide to a Precisely Arbitrary Countdown.", Harmony Books, (1997) You can read a review and safely buy this book from Amazon.com online bookstore
                              2. Chris Nelson, "A brief history of the apocalypse," at: http://www.chrisnelson.net This web site contains over 200 references to end-of-the-world predictions which have not come true.
                              3. William Martin, "Waiting for the End: The growing interest in apocalyptic prophesy," The Atlantic Monthly, 1982-JUN. Online at: http://www.theatlantic.com/
                              4. Charles Taze Russell, "The Time is at Hand," Page 99. Cited in Ref 5.
                              5. "Jehovah's Witnesses and the History of 1914," Watchman Fellowship, Inc., at: http://www.watchman.org
                              6. Watchtower magazine, 1924-JUL-15, Page 211).
                              7. Richard Kyle, "The last days are here again: A history of the end times," Baker Books, (1998), Page 111. You can read a review and safely buy this book from Amazon.com online bookstore
                              8. The Watchtower Magazine, 1968-APR-1.
                              9. "History of the Jehovah's Witnesses," Catholic Answers, at: http://www.catholic.com/
                              10. Ellen White, "Early Writings," Page 64-67. Cited in reference 12
                              11. Ellen White, "Testimonies," Vol. 1, p. 131.
                              12. "Analysis" at: http://www.ellenwhite.org/ This is a web site that is critical of Ellen White.
                              13. "Seed of the Serpent," Audiotape, 1979 version.
                              14. Joseph Smith, "Doctrine and Covenants," 130:14-17, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, (1981).
                              15. "Herman L. Hoeh," Wikipedia, downloaded on 2006-APR-24, from: http://en.wikipedia.org/
                              16. Stephen R. Gibson, "Did He Falsely Prophesy Of Christ's Return?," Light Planet, undated, at: http://www.lightplanet.com/
                              17. Joseph Smith, "History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," 7 volumes, edited by Brigham H. Roberts, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1957), 5:336–337

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by RCKoutWurGLKout View Post
                                The reason why I don't give you a date, dear Robocop, is because it is not my place to give a date that God says no one will know but God. If I were to try to give you a date, like so many in the past have and failed, then I am not relying on a relationship with God, but merely, as you say, fabricating it. Which would you rather me, do, fabricate it by lying to you, or express to you the change in myself from the love and truth of the matter? I am not trying to convert you. By all means, believe what you want to believe, but I will continue to post to point out the discrepancies in your "assumption" of what the Christian faith truly is.

                                Ruby Rose, you are correct that I have not studied a large part of the Qu'ran. I should rephrase my statement that not all practitioners of Islam are of the extreme. I do still, from what I know, which I agree, is limited, find Islam to be a spin-off of truth from the original message brought to Mohammed from Christian missionaries.

                                Again, my attempts at posting are never to be inflammatory, or a conversion attempt at any other person here. Frankly, I know better than to try and sway anyone's mind by debating them . Usually, if you're debating they already have their own die-hard opinion, and the debate will never change that .

                                Coming from my background from a former, very similar to Robocop's belief system, I feel I have the best of both worlds, knowing where I was, and knowing what I know now. I also realize that some read this and don't know enough about either issue, and so I hope to shed light on it by someone who DOES know what they are talking about, rather than simply implying from their own anti-belief systems.
                                No, you misunderstood. I'm not talking about you or ANY person giving a date for god's return but the religion itself. If the Bible (or any other religion) is real then WHY don't they give a date for god's return?

                                You obviously know if some religion/god was just created by man and they were trying to scam us they would say exactly what the Bible does i.e. I don't know. So, if the words in the Bible are such truth then they certainly should have the confidence to give a date but they don't.


                                P.S. Big Pat, excellent post. That's what I mean how religion is just scamming us and many people don't even realize how wrong they've already been in the past and continue to be wrong.

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