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  • TJMS81
    replied
    Originally posted by Bearcat357 View Post
    Not trying to be a smart ***....but are you sure it's BW...?

    There are 100s of companies over there doing that stuff.....and BW only has a few contracts now.....
    Yes, I am sure. I also deal with Triple C and Aegis regularly. BW is the only one I have dealt with that has that issue.

    Leave a comment:


  • TJMS81
    replied
    Originally posted by Bearcat357 View Post
    Not trying to be a smart ***....but are you sure it's BW...?

    There are 100s of companies over there doing that stuff.....and BW only has a few contracts now.....
    Yes, I am sure. I also deal with Triple C and Aegis regularly. BW is the only one I have dealt with that has that problem.

    Leave a comment:


  • JTShooter
    replied
    Originally posted by crazynova View Post
    Blackwater uses tactics that keep thier guys alive. You can never win hearts and minds occupying another country, it just doesnt work.
    Some of their tactics are the same we used over there... however firing blindly into a crowd of civilians is NOT one of them.

    Yes you can win the hearts and minds while "occupying" another country. We are doign just that.


    Originally posted by crazynova View Post
    Most of which are that our current rules of engagement are responsible for most of the casualties our armed forces have.
    I will agree a little bit on this point. The ROE is very restrictive when compared to the one we had while invading Iraq, however, there is a reason for that. You can't run around and just blindly fire or blow crap up. The new ROE makes you pause and think and make sure of your intended target which is what we need when preforming SASO missions.


    Originally posted by M-11 View Post
    BW operates in the same manner My Organization operates when performing Protective Service details. If we come under attack, we try to get away, if we cannot flee, we will do whatever we have to do to remove our principal, and ourselves from the danger zone.

    They roll around in strength, projecting power. This is a deterrent to try and prevent a lot of shenanigans. There are about 150 other organizations over there doing the same thing (Not just the big ones like Dyn, Triple C, Edinborough Sec, Group4) but tons of little guys. I did a lot of debriefs with Contractors that got ambushed on Rt Irish and Tampa, and by far the ones getting hit were the smaller companies trying to " blend in" travelling in smaller vehicles with less visible security posture.

    From my observation, travelling tough and showing force = People leave you alone.
    Agreed, and that's how we rolled too. The convoy with the bigger guns (M2s and M134s) usually didn't get messed with. Same as the convoys that hauled butt rather than the typical slow speed "watch out for IEDs" convoys.

    However, there's a difference between rolling "hot" and rolling like a jackhole. You can easily tell the trained PSD people and the untrained PSD.


    Originally posted by M-11 View Post
    And remember, BW is there to do their jobs, not win hearts and minds. That's what we are supposed to be doing.
    That's fine, and I want them to do their jobs, however, not at the cost of what we are trying to do over there.

    We can spend 6 months "winning over" an area in Baghdad that the insurgents hide in just to have it all undone by BW running through and shooting up a car full of civilians.

    Just my .02.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bearcat357
    replied
    Originally posted by TJMS81 View Post
    Ok, I've got to throw my .02 cents in...I've had experiences w/ BW...not impressed. From my experiences, they have not evolved and adapted to the situation. What worked in '03-'04 may not be necessary today. With that said, everyone has their bad apples. Maybe the ones I deal with on a routine basis fall into that category.
    Not trying to be a smart ***....but are you sure it's BW...?

    There are 100s of companies over there doing that stuff.....and BW only has a few contracts now.....

    Leave a comment:


  • Fuzz
    replied
    Blackwater is still going strong. Due to the recent bad publicity and public protest they have changed their local plans and use some of their affiliate company names to keep a lower profile, but still actively training for the military. I see them going to much more of that as we pull out of Iraq.

    Typical politicians in San Diego have bowed down to public protest and are trying to shut down an indoor training facility, but the courts have ordered the city to let it remain open. I am not quite sure how some people think they have the right to say wether or not an INDOOR training facility that has no impact on anything around it should be allowed in.



    http://www.10news.com/news/16516942/detail.html

    Blackwater Opens South Bay Facility Despite Protests

    POSTED: 5:33 pm PDT June 5, 2008
    UPDATED: 6:25 pm PDT June 5, 2008


    SAN DIEGO -- On Thursday, Blackwater was in Otay Mesa at a non-descript building that is a stone's throw from the U.S.-Mexico border.

    "You know, we're not getting a lot of protesters from this area. It's an industrial area," said Brian Bonfiglio, vice president of Blackwater Worldwide.

    The private security company did get an earful last Friday as protestors demonstrated outside a federal court.

    Despite the protest, a judge gave the company a temporary thumbs up that allows them to begin training 24 Navy sailors Thursday morning.

    "There needed to be another level of training, if you will, beyond what they learned in boot camp and that's what we provide here," said Bonfiglio.

    While training has been going on inside the facility for several hours, there are still people trying to actively kick Blackwater out of Otay Mesa.

    Anti-Blackwater activist Ray Lutz said, "It's not a done deal for me."

    Lutz has actively campaigned against Blackwater, saying the company is illegally training a private army in the South Bay.

    "And we want this addressed. And if they're not going to address it then well have to go to state court," said Lutz. "Blackwater also has a reputation for being a shoot first, ask-questions-never type of company."

    Bonfiglio said that is not true. He said the facility is only being used to train American sailors.

    "If we weren't Blackwater, if we were any other company then we would have come right in here and there wouldn't have been any issues," said Bonfiglio.

    San Diego city officials have tried blocking Blackwater's opening.

    However, a federal judge said the company had enough permits approved to open on Thursday.

    Both sides said they expect more lawsuits to be filed.


    http://www.10news.com/news/16173198/detail.html

    Mayor To Investigate Blackwater Permits

    POSTED: 6:44 am PDT May 6, 2008
    UPDATED: 1:57 pm PDT May 6, 2008


    SAN DIEGO -- Mayor Jerry Sanders wants to know whether Blackwater Worldwide, a controversial private military company, misrepresented itself when it sought city permits to set up an indoor training facility in Otay Mesa, 10News reported.

    North Carolina-based Blackwater has leased a 61,600-square-foot building in a business park on Siempre Viva Road, three blocks from the U.S.-Mexico border.

    In March, San Diego's Development Services Department granted permits for interior improvements but the permits weren't directly given to Blackwater. Instead, they were obtained by Raven Development Group, a "known" affiliate of Blackwater, company vice president Brian Bonfiglio told The San Diego Union-Tribune.

    But Sanders isn't so sure, the newspaper reported.

    In a recent memo to the city's chief operating officer, Jay Goldstone, Sanders asked for an investigation into the issue.

    "Questions have been raised as to the appropriateness of this location for the uses planned by Blackwater and the means used by the company to acquire the necessary permits from the city," Sanders wrote.

    "Specifically, allegations have been made that the company potentially used misleading names ... to inappropriately disguise the true identity of the occupant."

    The proposed Otay Mesa facility is not Blackwater's first attempt to establish a presence in San Diego County. Blackwater recently scraped plans to build a training facility in Potrero amid intense community opposition.

    Blackwater is opposed by peace activists, environmentalists, and residents who believe military-type training would bring unnecessary noise and traffic to rural communities.

    Last fall, Blackwater employees in Baghdad shot and killed 17 Iraqi civilians in what Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Malaki has called a massacre. The company says its guards opened fire after being fired upon by insurgents.

    The company, which has a State Department contract to provide private security in Iraq, has not faced charges over the killings.
    Last edited by Fuzz; 07-23-2008, 09:33 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • NORCOCOP
    replied
    I guess I did not make my point effectively enough, you are saying the same thing as I was. There is no divergence in train of thought, that I can see. I was not saying anything about community policing being effective or winning over people. I do believe treating people who deserve it with decency is good, and I carry that out in my personal and professional life. However I am no proponent of mandated community policing anywhere but Mayberry. I specifically said that some of the grey area, rough and tumble tactics and approach is helpful in the employment of some of that "nicer" good guy officer friendly crap. I guess the only comparison I can make is this, on the street tasing a someone does not garner respect for me as an individual with the local thugs, but tangleing with every one I meet takes it toll and sometimes equals time off, even when I win. I agree rolling heavy and a good show of force is optimal in open conflict avoidance. My personal way of handling things is straight forward if they open fire, identify the aggresor(s), attack through the threat, and leave bodies in the wake, make the survivors think they got lucky and next time their number is going to be up and they were only lucky this time. Same for a physical confrontation. By the way turn down a low income gheto street on friday night with 20-50 thugs hanging out in the middle of the street and it is a might makes right situation just like anywhere else people feel like they have nothing to live for and view you as their oppressor. If you show any weakness, or back down, you may as well put a target on you back, because they all know when your afraid or weak, word travels, and they are just waiting for the moment they can kill you and get away with it.

    By the way the way of doing business I was refering to was not the grey area stuff, but the community policing, sorry I did not clarify that.
    Last edited by NORCOCOP; 07-23-2008, 05:54 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • M-11
    replied
    But that way of doing business does not garner a lot of respect when you are dealing with thugs and druggies, who expect a certain level of no non sense approach when encountering the man. I guess my point is just this, some of that fear/respect those rougher tactics instill can be helpful when it is not the larger percentage of guys running around in general, as long as a legal and fine line is not crossed.
    I get what you are saying, but comparing community police tactics in America and Protective Service in Iraq and Afghanistan is not just apples and oranges, it's apples and cinder blocks. There is no comparison I can come up with.

    Iraq has been a "Might makes Right" place for thousands of years. This is a place where unfortunately projecting power is still worth more than courtesy and common sense.

    M-11

    Leave a comment:


  • NORCOCOP
    replied
    Just like a police department working a hostile enviroment, IE the ghetto tactics have to be finely balanced with officer/operator/military personel/ safety and the civilian populations perception carefully kept in mind. Any person has the ability to make a desision that casts the representative of the governing body in a bad light given the right or wrong situation. Sometimes it could not matter less what they/we do on a regular basis, because the malcontents are only waiting to have something to point to as their example of why they hate the MAN. blah blah blah.

    I sometimes get jealous of the departments that have fewer restrictions, and have noticed alot of guys in the "better" more regulated departments talking trash on them. A lot of times it is only because they are jealous they have more latitude in what and how they conduct their business. My department restricts us way passed the legal standard requires and alot of the public likes it that way. But that way of doing business does not garner a lot of respect when you are dealing with thugs and druggies, who expect a certain level of no non sense approach when encountering the man. I guess my point is just this, some of that fear/respect those rougher tactics instill can be helpful when it is not the larger percentage of guys running around in general, as long as a legal and fine line is not crossed.

    That is just my opinion though, and I am not about to take the pay cut to work one of the departments that run around half cocked doing as they please. I am pre-disposed to find trouble any way and having my strict guidelines and superiors in place above me keeps me in check sometimes when I like it least, and keeps me out of a lot of trouble I am sure

    The same types of guys attracted to the lure of the do what you want departments is similiar to a lot (not all) of the guys doing the contract security stuff and I have seen that more latitude and fun does not equate to more safety on anyones part.

    Leave a comment:


  • M-11
    replied
    BW operates in the same manner My Organization operates when performing Protective Service details. If we come under attack, we try to get away, if we cannot flee, we will do whatever we have to do to remove our principal, and ourselves from the danger zone.

    They roll around in strength, projecting power. This is a deterrent to try and prevent a lot of shenanigans. There are about 150 other organizations over there doing the same thing (Not just the big ones like Dyn, Triple C, Edinborough Sec, Group4) but tons of little guys. I did a lot of debriefs with Contractors that got ambushed on Rt Irish and Tampa, and by far the ones getting hit were the smaller companies trying to " blend in" travelling in smaller vehicles with less visible security posture.

    From my observation, travelling tough and showing force = People leave you alone.

    And remember, BW is there to do their jobs, not win hearts and minds. That's what we are supposed to be doing.

    My .02

    M-11

    Leave a comment:


  • TJMS81
    replied
    Ok, I've got to throw my .02 cents in...I've had experiences w/ BW...not impressed. From my experiences, they have not evolved and adapted to the situation. What worked in '03-'04 may not be necessary today. With that said, everyone has their bad apples. Maybe the ones I deal with on a routine basis fall into that category.
    Last edited by TJMS81; 07-23-2008, 03:37 AM. Reason: grammar

    Leave a comment:


  • crazynova
    replied
    Originally posted by Norman View Post
    I don't know justhomp personally, but I know enough about him to say that you should take his word this.
    I know hes a smart guy who has a lot of experience on the matter, but Ive seen a lot of different first hand opinions. Most of which are that our current rules of engagement are responsible for most of the casualties our armed forces have.

    Leave a comment:


  • Norman
    replied
    Originally posted by crazynova View Post
    Blackwater uses tactics that keep thier guys alive. You can never win hearts and minds occupying another country, it just doesnt work.
    I don't know justhomp personally, but I know enough about him to say that you should take his word this.

    Leave a comment:


  • crazynova
    replied
    Originally posted by justhomp View Post
    No you don't.

    Only a small precentage of blackwater is comprised of fomer SOF. The rest are just people trying to make a buck that aren't very well trained.

    I've seen their "tactics" first hand and on both sides of the coin.

    If anything, there will be more civilian casualities and that's no way to win the "hearts and minds".

    My opinion is that blackwater's (and other PMCs) tactics and procedures in the recent two years has hurt our efforts over there...
    Blackwater uses tactics that keep thier guys alive. You can never win hearts and minds occupying another country, it just doesnt work.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bearcat357
    replied
    Originally posted by farewelltonavy
    Change their name.
    Not going to happen....


    Originally posted by farewelltonavy
    I read in the Air Force Times paper that Blackwater was trying to create a fleet of helicopters and airplanes to expand the services they offer to the military. The title actually was: Why BW is building its own Air Force
    Why not....? Grap retired military pilots....buy the A/C.....and then drop folks/supplies into all areas of the world and get paid for it...... And who says it has to be in the ME.....it can be in Central America, Africa, Asia, etc..... Hell, even here in the US in remote areas......

    Leave a comment:


  • Surf
    replied
    BW still has contracts for security for almost another year. IMO they are reading the writing on the wall with the upcomming elections. Both candidates are not as open to private security contracting as Bush is. How much will BW downsize its security contracts? I think they are just taking a lets wait and see what happens attitude over the next year or so. Hell when BW had its licensed pulled from the Iraqi gov, pretty much everything in Iraq involving Gov and development came to a stand still. They had to re-instate them only a few days later.

    BW is doing what any company in this type of business and climate should do which is expand and diversify their interests. If they can sustain profitablity without as much need for providing security forces then why not? There is quite a bit involved with such operations and if there are easier or better ways of making a dollar then I am sure they will follow this path. Good or bad BW has a very negative connotation to their name. It may be in their best interest to lay low on this end of things. There are numerous other companies to fill the potential void, even on the WPPS side of things. Hell you can mention other companies names doing the WPPS contracting and most Americans have never heard of them.

    There is no doubt that WPPS contracts are highly profitable and there will continue to be a need for them. How much of a role will BW play in the future, who knows? I am sure Dyn and TC are not going anywhere soon if BW pulls up shop. Will that force the DoS to rely more heavily on Dyn and TC? Probably, but if the DoS opens up the bidding there will be no shortage of companies bidding on those available contracts.

    Leave a comment:

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