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  • #16
    BW operates in the same manner My Organization operates when performing Protective Service details. If we come under attack, we try to get away, if we cannot flee, we will do whatever we have to do to remove our principal, and ourselves from the danger zone.

    They roll around in strength, projecting power. This is a deterrent to try and prevent a lot of shenanigans. There are about 150 other organizations over there doing the same thing (Not just the big ones like Dyn, Triple C, Edinborough Sec, Group4) but tons of little guys. I did a lot of debriefs with Contractors that got ambushed on Rt Irish and Tampa, and by far the ones getting hit were the smaller companies trying to " blend in" travelling in smaller vehicles with less visible security posture.

    From my observation, travelling tough and showing force = People leave you alone.

    And remember, BW is there to do their jobs, not win hearts and minds. That's what we are supposed to be doing.

    My .02

    M-11
    “All men dream...... But not equally..
    Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it is vanity;
    but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men,
    for they act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible.....”

    TE Lawrence

    Comment


    • #17
      Just like a police department working a hostile enviroment, IE the ghetto tactics have to be finely balanced with officer/operator/military personel/ safety and the civilian populations perception carefully kept in mind. Any person has the ability to make a desision that casts the representative of the governing body in a bad light given the right or wrong situation. Sometimes it could not matter less what they/we do on a regular basis, because the malcontents are only waiting to have something to point to as their example of why they hate the MAN. blah blah blah.

      I sometimes get jealous of the departments that have fewer restrictions, and have noticed alot of guys in the "better" more regulated departments talking trash on them. A lot of times it is only because they are jealous they have more latitude in what and how they conduct their business. My department restricts us way passed the legal standard requires and alot of the public likes it that way. But that way of doing business does not garner a lot of respect when you are dealing with thugs and druggies, who expect a certain level of no non sense approach when encountering the man. I guess my point is just this, some of that fear/respect those rougher tactics instill can be helpful when it is not the larger percentage of guys running around in general, as long as a legal and fine line is not crossed.

      That is just my opinion though, and I am not about to take the pay cut to work one of the departments that run around half cocked doing as they please. I am pre-disposed to find trouble any way and having my strict guidelines and superiors in place above me keeps me in check sometimes when I like it least, and keeps me out of a lot of trouble I am sure

      The same types of guys attracted to the lure of the do what you want departments is similiar to a lot (not all) of the guys doing the contract security stuff and I have seen that more latitude and fun does not equate to more safety on anyones part.

      Comment


      • #18
        But that way of doing business does not garner a lot of respect when you are dealing with thugs and druggies, who expect a certain level of no non sense approach when encountering the man. I guess my point is just this, some of that fear/respect those rougher tactics instill can be helpful when it is not the larger percentage of guys running around in general, as long as a legal and fine line is not crossed.
        I get what you are saying, but comparing community police tactics in America and Protective Service in Iraq and Afghanistan is not just apples and oranges, it's apples and cinder blocks. There is no comparison I can come up with.

        Iraq has been a "Might makes Right" place for thousands of years. This is a place where unfortunately projecting power is still worth more than courtesy and common sense.

        M-11
        “All men dream...... But not equally..
        Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it is vanity;
        but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men,
        for they act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible.....”

        TE Lawrence

        Comment


        • #19
          I guess I did not make my point effectively enough, you are saying the same thing as I was. There is no divergence in train of thought, that I can see. I was not saying anything about community policing being effective or winning over people. I do believe treating people who deserve it with decency is good, and I carry that out in my personal and professional life. However I am no proponent of mandated community policing anywhere but Mayberry. I specifically said that some of the grey area, rough and tumble tactics and approach is helpful in the employment of some of that "nicer" good guy officer friendly crap. I guess the only comparison I can make is this, on the street tasing a someone does not garner respect for me as an individual with the local thugs, but tangleing with every one I meet takes it toll and sometimes equals time off, even when I win. I agree rolling heavy and a good show of force is optimal in open conflict avoidance. My personal way of handling things is straight forward if they open fire, identify the aggresor(s), attack through the threat, and leave bodies in the wake, make the survivors think they got lucky and next time their number is going to be up and they were only lucky this time. Same for a physical confrontation. By the way turn down a low income gheto street on friday night with 20-50 thugs hanging out in the middle of the street and it is a might makes right situation just like anywhere else people feel like they have nothing to live for and view you as their oppressor. If you show any weakness, or back down, you may as well put a target on you back, because they all know when your afraid or weak, word travels, and they are just waiting for the moment they can kill you and get away with it.

          By the way the way of doing business I was refering to was not the grey area stuff, but the community policing, sorry I did not clarify that.
          Last edited by NORCOCOP; 07-23-2008, 05:54 AM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Blackwater is still going strong. Due to the recent bad publicity and public protest they have changed their local plans and use some of their affiliate company names to keep a lower profile, but still actively training for the military. I see them going to much more of that as we pull out of Iraq.

            Typical politicians in San Diego have bowed down to public protest and are trying to shut down an indoor training facility, but the courts have ordered the city to let it remain open. I am not quite sure how some people think they have the right to say wether or not an INDOOR training facility that has no impact on anything around it should be allowed in.



            http://www.10news.com/news/16516942/detail.html

            Blackwater Opens South Bay Facility Despite Protests

            POSTED: 5:33 pm PDT June 5, 2008
            UPDATED: 6:25 pm PDT June 5, 2008


            SAN DIEGO -- On Thursday, Blackwater was in Otay Mesa at a non-descript building that is a stone's throw from the U.S.-Mexico border.

            "You know, we're not getting a lot of protesters from this area. It's an industrial area," said Brian Bonfiglio, vice president of Blackwater Worldwide.

            The private security company did get an earful last Friday as protestors demonstrated outside a federal court.

            Despite the protest, a judge gave the company a temporary thumbs up that allows them to begin training 24 Navy sailors Thursday morning.

            "There needed to be another level of training, if you will, beyond what they learned in boot camp and that's what we provide here," said Bonfiglio.

            While training has been going on inside the facility for several hours, there are still people trying to actively kick Blackwater out of Otay Mesa.

            Anti-Blackwater activist Ray Lutz said, "It's not a done deal for me."

            Lutz has actively campaigned against Blackwater, saying the company is illegally training a private army in the South Bay.

            "And we want this addressed. And if they're not going to address it then well have to go to state court," said Lutz. "Blackwater also has a reputation for being a shoot first, ask-questions-never type of company."

            Bonfiglio said that is not true. He said the facility is only being used to train American sailors.

            "If we weren't Blackwater, if we were any other company then we would have come right in here and there wouldn't have been any issues," said Bonfiglio.

            San Diego city officials have tried blocking Blackwater's opening.

            However, a federal judge said the company had enough permits approved to open on Thursday.

            Both sides said they expect more lawsuits to be filed.


            http://www.10news.com/news/16173198/detail.html

            Mayor To Investigate Blackwater Permits

            POSTED: 6:44 am PDT May 6, 2008
            UPDATED: 1:57 pm PDT May 6, 2008


            SAN DIEGO -- Mayor Jerry Sanders wants to know whether Blackwater Worldwide, a controversial private military company, misrepresented itself when it sought city permits to set up an indoor training facility in Otay Mesa, 10News reported.

            North Carolina-based Blackwater has leased a 61,600-square-foot building in a business park on Siempre Viva Road, three blocks from the U.S.-Mexico border.

            In March, San Diego's Development Services Department granted permits for interior improvements but the permits weren't directly given to Blackwater. Instead, they were obtained by Raven Development Group, a "known" affiliate of Blackwater, company vice president Brian Bonfiglio told The San Diego Union-Tribune.

            But Sanders isn't so sure, the newspaper reported.

            In a recent memo to the city's chief operating officer, Jay Goldstone, Sanders asked for an investigation into the issue.

            "Questions have been raised as to the appropriateness of this location for the uses planned by Blackwater and the means used by the company to acquire the necessary permits from the city," Sanders wrote.

            "Specifically, allegations have been made that the company potentially used misleading names ... to inappropriately disguise the true identity of the occupant."

            The proposed Otay Mesa facility is not Blackwater's first attempt to establish a presence in San Diego County. Blackwater recently scraped plans to build a training facility in Potrero amid intense community opposition.

            Blackwater is opposed by peace activists, environmentalists, and residents who believe military-type training would bring unnecessary noise and traffic to rural communities.

            Last fall, Blackwater employees in Baghdad shot and killed 17 Iraqi civilians in what Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Malaki has called a massacre. The company says its guards opened fire after being fired upon by insurgents.

            The company, which has a State Department contract to provide private security in Iraq, has not faced charges over the killings.
            Last edited by Fuzz; 07-23-2008, 09:33 AM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by TJMS81 View Post
              Ok, I've got to throw my .02 cents in...I've had experiences w/ BW...not impressed. From my experiences, they have not evolved and adapted to the situation. What worked in '03-'04 may not be necessary today. With that said, everyone has their bad apples. Maybe the ones I deal with on a routine basis fall into that category.
              Not trying to be a smart ***....but are you sure it's BW...?

              There are 100s of companies over there doing that stuff.....and BW only has a few contracts now.....

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by crazynova View Post
                Blackwater uses tactics that keep thier guys alive. You can never win hearts and minds occupying another country, it just doesnt work.
                Some of their tactics are the same we used over there... however firing blindly into a crowd of civilians is NOT one of them.

                Yes you can win the hearts and minds while "occupying" another country. We are doign just that.


                Originally posted by crazynova View Post
                Most of which are that our current rules of engagement are responsible for most of the casualties our armed forces have.
                I will agree a little bit on this point. The ROE is very restrictive when compared to the one we had while invading Iraq, however, there is a reason for that. You can't run around and just blindly fire or blow crap up. The new ROE makes you pause and think and make sure of your intended target which is what we need when preforming SASO missions.


                Originally posted by M-11 View Post
                BW operates in the same manner My Organization operates when performing Protective Service details. If we come under attack, we try to get away, if we cannot flee, we will do whatever we have to do to remove our principal, and ourselves from the danger zone.

                They roll around in strength, projecting power. This is a deterrent to try and prevent a lot of shenanigans. There are about 150 other organizations over there doing the same thing (Not just the big ones like Dyn, Triple C, Edinborough Sec, Group4) but tons of little guys. I did a lot of debriefs with Contractors that got ambushed on Rt Irish and Tampa, and by far the ones getting hit were the smaller companies trying to " blend in" travelling in smaller vehicles with less visible security posture.

                From my observation, travelling tough and showing force = People leave you alone.
                Agreed, and that's how we rolled too. The convoy with the bigger guns (M2s and M134s) usually didn't get messed with. Same as the convoys that hauled butt rather than the typical slow speed "watch out for IEDs" convoys.

                However, there's a difference between rolling "hot" and rolling like a jackhole. You can easily tell the trained PSD people and the untrained PSD.


                Originally posted by M-11 View Post
                And remember, BW is there to do their jobs, not win hearts and minds. That's what we are supposed to be doing.
                That's fine, and I want them to do their jobs, however, not at the cost of what we are trying to do over there.

                We can spend 6 months "winning over" an area in Baghdad that the insurgents hide in just to have it all undone by BW running through and shooting up a car full of civilians.

                Just my .02.
                “The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed."

                "You go for a man hard enough and fast enough, he don't have time to think about how many's with him; he thinks about himself, and how he might get clear of that wrath that's about to set down on him."

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Bearcat357 View Post
                  Not trying to be a smart ***....but are you sure it's BW...?

                  There are 100s of companies over there doing that stuff.....and BW only has a few contracts now.....
                  Yes, I am sure. I also deal with Triple C and Aegis regularly. BW is the only one I have dealt with that has that problem.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Bearcat357 View Post
                    Not trying to be a smart ***....but are you sure it's BW...?

                    There are 100s of companies over there doing that stuff.....and BW only has a few contracts now.....
                    Yes, I am sure. I also deal with Triple C and Aegis regularly. BW is the only one I have dealt with that has that issue.

                    Comment

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