Bradford (UK) police sue superiors

[Rudie1]

i really wanted to get some feed-back from police officers on this one.
i don't know if any of you heard about this in the US, but here in england recently we have had a slew of race riots, all over the country, between south-asian youths, and white supremacist youths. some of the riots were extremely violent, including the ones here in oldham in london. however, following the riots in bradford, the field officers have launched a law-suit against their superiors for the suffering they endured trying to keep the peace during the fracas. they believe that the ones in charge are responsible for a complete lack of organization, and in the end, the police on the ground were ill-equiped to deal with the situation.
any thoughts on this?

[SWAT1]

When it comes to Officer Safety Rioting in the UK has always been a moot point. Take Broadwater Farm for instance a frenzied mob cornered a Police Officer and almost hacked off his head their intention was to mount it on a pole and parade it through the Streets. In that same riot shots were fired at Police, god knows how many petrol bombs and other missiles were thrown.
Baton Rounds were authorised but never deployed why? The reason is simple no senior police officer in the United Kingdom wants the stigma of being the first man to authorise baton rounds on 'Mainland Britain' (I say Mainland for our US viewers as they are commonly deployed during civil unrest in Northern Ireland).
Bottom line. Do Officers in the UK have grounds for grievance against Senior Officers? You bet your life they do!

[Peeler]

It's the old saying `fail to plan, plan to fail`. From what I saw and talking to public order trained officers it appears to us that there was a serious lack of command and control by the senior officers. Apparently before the first `riot` took place, intelligence officers had warned of tension in the community. Nothing was done about it. Then over the next few days when all hell broke loose up north there was still plenty of time for the senior officers to make contingency plans. The ones they made were obviously poor. 150+ officers injured is a totally unacceptable figure for the amount of `rioters` invovled.
Compare this to the Mayday protest in London. As far as I am aware there were no injuries to police or protesters and very little damage was caused. The Met learned from the previous years nightmare, and a well prepared plan was put in place. I hope the guys up north win their action.

Rudie, I don't remember there being any serious riots in London at the time of the problems up north. The only incident that comes to mind was when the peaceful protest over the shooting of a male who was threatening public with a pistol shaped lighter was hi-jacked by about 100 local youths. What has looting and smashing up cars got to do with the tragic death of a young man?

[blondie72]

I completely agree that Officers in the UK have grounds for grievance. I think you made a great point, SWAT1, about how senior Offcers are reluctant to authorize baton rounds. I hope the Officers win their action.

Peeler, I believe Rudie may be refering to the violent Oldham riots that occured at the end of May.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/...00/1355379.stm

[ 08-21-2001: Message edited by: blondie72 ]

[Peeler]

Blondie I realised that , I just wanted to point out that the one and only problem we had in London was unrelated to the problems in Oldham and Bradford. It only lasted for a few hours and was very small compared to the problems up north.

It appears now that baton rounds have been given some serious consideration by senior management due to the death that I previously mentioned. The senior management are looking hard at non-lethal weapons as an alternative to firearms in certain situations

[SWAT1]

Peeler
Hindsight is an exact science. I was with SO19 for 6 years. Senior Officers can look back at the guy with the gun shaped cigarette
lighter and say "Oh we should have used a less lethal option like a baton round". Forget it on 2 grounds 1. At the time of the incident it was a gun plain and simple pointed at somebody else, the officers shot him. 2. You would never fire a baton round at somebody with a gun if firearms were available.
I say gun even though we now know it wasn't but at the time to the officers it was. If that makes sense.
Take Care
Steve

[blondie72]

Originally posted by Peeler: I just wanted to point out that the one and only problem we had in London was unrelated to the problems in Oldham and Bradford. It only lasted for a few hours and was very small compared to the problems up north.

You're right Peeler, the London disturbance was a minor one by comparison. However, the reason I personally make the connection is because the shooting of the man with the lighter was unfairly given a racial twist by the media, and certain groups. I think this would be the "reason" for the looting and smashing up cars.

It appears now that baton rounds have been given some serious consideration by senior management due to the death that I previously mentioned. The senior management are looking hard at non-lethal weapons as an alternative to firearms in certain situations.

Hopefully, not in the situation that we're discussing, though! I have to agree with SWAT1, I would NOT like to be dispatched to a "man with a gun" call, armed only with baton rounds.

[ 08-22-2001: Message edited by: blondie72 ]

[Peeler]

SWAT & Blondie, I agree with you totally. My last call of tonight was an armed incident. 4 guys with pistols were supposed to holding another guy captive in his house. 3 ARVs attended and everything went very smoothly. We didn't get the bad guys though as they had left before we arrived. When guns are concerned I'd rather have a cop with an MP5 protecting my ***.

SWAT when were you in so19? I have a good friend who was on grey team for quite some time. Does the name `stringy` ring any bells?

[SWAT1]

Peeler
I started off on Grey Team then went as Team Leader with Black team. SO19 from 1990 - 1997 when I retired. 'Stringy' doesn't ring any bells but he may have been known as something else. He'll know me or know of me tho'. I wrote a couple of books about my time in the Unit.
Stay safe!