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Dr. Geoffrey Alpert & Pursuits

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  • Dr. Geoffrey Alpert & Pursuits

    This guy absolutely disgust me. Everytime the media across the nation runs a story on Police Pursuits, they use him as an "expert". The only thing he is an expert in is his well documented opposition against pursuits. Just like the story today on what happened when the Illinois trooper couldn't chase. I have read his studies and he only analizes that data of chase'sthat have gone bad. He is an armchair quarterback. Where's someone from our side to counter this idiot? Where's the FOP or the IACP?

    What he fails to include is all the lives that have been lost because the police didn't pursue and lives saved because we did. There have been many, many cases like this but you won't see Dr. Alpert or the media report it. For instance, when Joel Rifkin was arrest on Long Island, only one media outlet reported it was after a pursuit. All the rest reported he was arrested after a "traffic stop". Joel Rifkin was pursued for a minor traffic violation. Had Joel Rifkin been allowed to continue on without being chased, as many police agencies would've allowed, not only would homicide victim #17 not been found in his truck, but the death toll would've steadily climbed.

  • #2
    The question people are asking is whether pursuits for minor traffic violations, and the accompanying danger it creates for the public, are worth the risk the majority of the time. I don't know Alpert's research at all but there have been quite a few high profile accidental deaths in recent years due to pursuits for minor violations. I think it's worth studying.
    -I don't feel you honor someone by creating a physical gesture (the salute). You honor them by holding them in memory and, in law enforcement, proceeding in vigilant, ethical police work. You honor this country or deceased soldiers or whatever you're honoring when you salute a flag by thinking, feeling, and continuing a life of freedom.

    --ArkansasRed24

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    • #3
      Here are his qualifications:

      http://www.deadlyforce.com/CURRICVITAE2.html

      Certainly has no street experience or LEO experience!

      Read as he opines about pursuits:

      http://www.pursuitwatch.org/stories/alpert.htm
      Be courteous to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence!

      [George Washington (1732 - 1799)]

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by djack16 View Post
        The question people are asking is whether pursuits for minor traffic violations, and the accompanying danger it creates for the public, are worth the risk the majority of the time. I don't know Alpert's research at all but there have been quite a few high profile accidental deaths in recent years due to pursuits for minor violations. I think it's worth studying.
        Actually it has been studied and the results are very much in favor of continuing pursuits rather than stopping them. CHP did a paper called The Evaluation of Risk - Initial Cause vs Final Outcome in Police Pursuits.

        To put things in perspective, the study quantified the risks created by pursuits and compared them against the risks we face in normal, day to day life. Here are some of their findings:

        As an innocent civilian, the odds of you being killed in a police pursuit are 1 in 4.1 Million

        As a suspect or a police officer, the odds of you being killed in a police pursuit are 1 in 751,918.

        Other comparative risks we face in day to day life:
        Being struck by lightning - 1 in 600,000
        Being killed in an alcohol related traffic collision - 1 in 14,771
        Being Murdered 1 in 7,752
        Being killed in a non-alcohol related traffic collision - 1 in 6,427
        Being Forcibly Raped 1 in 2,701
        Being a Robbery victim 1 in 251
        Being an Aggravated Assault victim 1 in 164
        Being a victim of any violent crime 1 in 87

        As you can see, society freely and willingly subjects itself to far greater risks than those posed by police pursuits everytime it sets foot outside its front door, so harping about unreasonable risks created by police pursuits smells of a little too much BS for me.

        If you read the CHP study, you will see that when possible, they also followed up on those pursuits that were discontinued for being "too risky" and documented further crimes that were commited by the suspects including the murder of a peace officer. The report suggets that based on the further crimes committed by the bad guys, terminating the pursuit can pose an even greater risk to the public than continuing it.
        Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

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        • #5
          That Alpert guy has no qualifications. Herb Alpert probably knows more about law enforcement.
          Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. - Ronald Reagan

          I don't think It'll happen in the US because we don't trust our government. We are a country of skeptics, raised by skeptics, founded by skeptics. - Amaroq

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          • #6
            Economists should be the ones studying this, not a social work PhD. This is a classical economic question, does the choice yield a higher value?
            "Give me chastity and give me constancy, but do not give it yet." -St. Augustine

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            • #7
              Originally posted by L-1 View Post
              Actually it has been studied and the results are very much in favor of continuing pursuits rather than stopping them. CHP did a paper called The Evaluation of Risk - Initial Cause vs Final Outcome in Police Pursuits.

              To put things in perspective, the study quantified the risks created by pursuits and compared them against the risks we face in normal, day to day life. Here are some of their findings:

              As an innocent civilian, the odds of you being killed in a police pursuit are 1 in 4.1 Million

              As a suspect or a police officer, the odds of you being killed in a police pursuit are 1 in 751,918.

              Other comparative risks we face in day to day life:
              Being struck by lightning - 1 in 600,000
              Being killed in an alcohol related traffic collision - 1 in 14,771
              Being Murdered 1 in 7,752
              Being killed in a non-alcohol related traffic collision - 1 in 6,427
              Being Forcibly Raped 1 in 2,701
              Being a Robbery victim 1 in 251
              Being an Aggravated Assault victim 1 in 164
              Being a victim of any violent crime 1 in 87

              As you can see, society freely and willingly subjects itself to far greater risks than those posed by police pursuits everytime it sets foot outside its front door, so harping about unreasonable risks created by police pursuits smells of a little too much BS for me.

              If you read the CHP study, you will see that when possible, they also followed up on those pursuits that were discontinued for being "too risky" and documented further crimes that were commited by the suspects including the murder of a peace officer. The report suggets that based on the further crimes committed by the bad guys, terminating the pursuit can pose an even greater risk to the public than continuing it.
              Proceeding Post is the answer. Dr. Alpert's "thesis" is simply another example of a self proclaimed expert telling law enforcement how to do it's job. What is unfortunate is the number of wimp, no load, law enforcement executives who will actually be influenced by the likes of Alpert.

              Comment


              • #8
                just because someone has an alphabet behind their name doesnt mean the know everything thre is to know about that subject. Nor does it mean that they have the best out look over all. It just means they have book smarts.
                ‘Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go.’
                Oscar Wilde

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by texaschickeee View Post
                  just because someone has an alphabet behind their name doesnt mean the know everything thre is to know about that subject. Nor does it mean that they have the best out look over all. It just means they have book smarts.
                  Great thoughts. I've been told PHD is really an abbreviation for "Piled Higher and Deeper".

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The less we pursue, the more they will run. The more they run, the less safe we all are. Simple.
                    Space for rent .........

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by djack16 View Post
                      The question people are asking is whether pursuits for minor traffic violations, and the accompanying danger it creates for the public, are worth the risk the majority of the time. I don't know Alpert's research at all but there have been quite a few high profile accidental deaths in recent years due to pursuits for minor violations. I think it's worth studying.

                      You know how many "minor infractions" have turned up major felons? We can't even chase for drunken driving yet you know how many people they kill a year? And think about this. The motorist who goes out there and commits a minor violation and then pulls right over when we hit the lights. They are the ones we give tickets to. But the motorist driving recklessly and takes off when we hit the lights, those are the ones we have to let go.

                      Where's Dr. Alpert calling on the auto industry to "computer control" their cars to tops speeds of 80 MPH? The highest legal speed limit in the nation is 75 so why the need to have cars out there that can go well over 100, many over 150? Police cars have their top speeds computer controled so why not the public? Take the speeds out of the cars and you've greatly diminished the risk of high speed pursuits. There's also the PIT manuever. Most agencies don't use them. Officers should be trained and allowed to use this technique to end a chase as early as possible instead of being relegated to a following action. Where's Dr. Alpert's taking a strong vocal stance on this?


                      No, instead he just goes out there and takes the easiest way out in saying we shouldn't chase based on his highly slewed studies and the public and media take him at his word and use him as an "expert".

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Good post but I am sure this tard of a "teacher" would try to explain it away with some liberal drivel .........
                        Last edited by scratched13; 08-01-2007, 09:41 AM.
                        Space for rent .........

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by texaschickeee View Post
                          just because someone has an alphabet behind their name doesnt mean the know everything thre is to know about that subject. Nor does it mean that they have the best out look over all. It just means they have book smarts.
                          Perhaps, this is a good reason for intelligent, seasoned officers to continue their higher education and achieve some professional level degrees. That way, the next time there is a pursuit, a LEO with a PhD can voice an opinion that will be accepted by the general public.

                          It also wouldnt hurt to have more professors teaching in the criminal justice programs that have actually been out on the street. So the next time the topic of "college degrees for officers" comes up, think about the long term benefits of officers with alphabets behind their names.

                          Regards,
                          CA
                          15 year LEO
                          PhD candidate

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            No one without significant street experience should be allowed to hold any position of educating in law enforcement.
                            Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. - Ronald Reagan

                            I don't think It'll happen in the US because we don't trust our government. We are a country of skeptics, raised by skeptics, founded by skeptics. - Amaroq

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ateamer View Post
                              No one without significant street experience should be allowed to hold any position of educating in law enforcement.
                              I agree, its much better to have a professor with actual experience along with education.

                              The problem is convincing officers that the education is important. Regardless of how long an officer has been on the street, it doesnt make them any more qualified to teach than a academian with no experience.

                              A blending of the two is best, but everytime someone brings up the topic of college degrees, its almost always discredited as useless learning. What many officers and administrators continue to fail to realize, is that outside of law enforcement, your credentials mean alot.

                              It may not be right, but thats the way the world works.

                              Regards,
                              CA

                              Comment

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