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  • #76
    Originally posted by iconoclaste View Post
    ...70 years ago police forces in America were the enforcement wing of overtly racist [Democrat] policies.
    Fixed.....

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    • #77
       

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      • #78
        On another note, Ashley Babbitt was ruled a good shoot at the Capitol, I wouldn't expect otherwise. After she went down people continued their actions. Must be generational as people have stated, you can't fix stupid.
        Last edited by retired137; 04-14-2021, 07:28 PM.

        Comment


        • Levithane
          Levithane commented
          Editing a comment
          To be fair DC is its own animal. The same sort of shooting could happen in any other part of the nation and be ruled an unjust use of force. That statement is in no way shape or form defending the actions of the people who attempted to enter.

      • #79
        Originally posted by iconoclaste View Post

        While it's true that being killed by an officer is infinitesimal, it's also true that the rate of civilians being killed by police is higher in the US than any other 1st world country. 33 deaths per million in the US vs 10 Canada, 1 Germany, 0 Norway.

        There were 1100 people killed by police in 2019 in the US. In Japan (about 40% the population size of the US) there were two (yes 2 total people killed by police) in all of 2019.Germany (about a 1/6) of the US population had 11 total deaths by police.

        For young black men (ages 20-35) death by police is the 6th leading cause of death. 1 in 1000 young black men will be killed by police vs .39 white men.

        I mean I agree with much of the sentiment of your post. I do think that in general police are blamed for much that is out of their control which in my opinion is sort of the point of all this. How do we create a society in which there are less police encounters that are violent/dangerous/have the possibility of leading to death? This would of course be better for police and for citizens.

        I have always believed that this is much less of a police problem than it is a societal problem. The results of societal problems will emerge at the margins of society which is where police so often operate. But to just say well the chances of being killed are infinitesimal, so there's no problem, it's all just a media created illusion is only partly true in my opinion.

        And I know people really don't like bringing race up, but we have to admit that only 70 years ago police forces in America were the enforcement wing of overtly racist policies. The elderly generation of black Americans lived in a society where police were not to be trusted. That was their experience, that's the stories they told their kids, and that history and mentality was passed down. That's not something that just disappears, and that's sad because it has a huge impact on how police are viewed by black communities. To just say there is no problem seems like a pretty ignorant viewpoint. We will disagree how we solve that problem, but it's a problem none the less.
        Police being killed by citizens is higher in the US than those other countries............
        Since some people need to be told by notes in crayon .......Don't PM me with without prior permission. If you can't discuss the situation in the open forum ----it must not be that important

        My new word for the day is FOCUS, when someone irritates you tell them to FOCUS

        Comment


        • #80
          Originally posted by iconoclaste View Post

          While it's true that being killed by an officer is infinitesimal, it's also true that the rate of civilians being killed by police is higher in the US than any other 1st world country. 33 deaths per million in the US vs 10 Canada, 1 Germany, 0 Norway.

          There were 1100 people killed by police in 2019 in the US. In Japan (about 40% the population size of the US) there were two (yes 2 total people killed by police) in all of 2019.Germany (about a 1/6) of the US population had 11 total deaths by police.

          For young black men (ages 20-35) death by police is the 6th leading cause of death. 1 in 1000 young black men will be killed by police vs .39 white men.

          I mean I agree with much of the sentiment of your post. I do think that in general police are blamed for much that is out of their control which in my opinion is sort of the point of all this. How do we create a society in which there are less police encounters that are violent/dangerous/have the possibility of leading to death? This would of course be better for police and for citizens.

          I have always believed that this is much less of a police problem than it is a societal problem. The results of societal problems will emerge at the margins of society which is where police so often operate. But to just say well the chances of being killed are infinitesimal, so there's no problem, it's all just a media created illusion is only partly true in my opinion.

          And I know people really don't like bringing race up, but we have to admit that only 70 years ago police forces in America were the enforcement wing of overtly racist policies. The elderly generation of black Americans lived in a society where police were not to be trusted. That was their experience, that's the stories they told their kids, and that history and mentality was passed down. That's not something that just disappears, and that's sad because it has a huge impact on how police are viewed by black communities. To just say there is no problem seems like a pretty ignorant viewpoint. We will disagree how we solve that problem, but it's a problem none the less.
          You wrote some interesting things here and I believe your analysis is fair. But as others have pointed out, other countries have more gang violence and also more instances of cops being shot by citizens. So it is relative.

          Also, I am never one to respond to police shootings with a deflection like " what about Chicago" because 1) it's apples to oranges and 2) we can walk and chew gum at the same time.

          However, I do think it's relevant in the sense that it calls out the media bias which, IMO, is anti-police. I believe that lawmakers too have an agenda and the media are complicit in it. Because what they appear to be doing is making police shootings appear to be at epidemic levels when we all know that they aren't. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be addressed but they are nowhere near what they are being made out to be. OTOH, the city of Philadelphia will shatter their previous homicide rate and you have toddlers being killed daily by gun violence. These stories are covered by the media, but nowhere near at the rate that police shootings are, and I do not see Facebook memes honoring the toddlers who are killed by such gang violence. This IS an epidemic and to not cover it as such reeks of an agenda. I mean, the Brooklyn Park MN city manager was fired for saying the wrong thing at the podium yet the mayor, DA, and police chief in Philly all still have jobs. Something is wrong with this picture and we all know what it is.


          "Jerry, just remember, it’s not a lie if you believe it". George Constanza.

          Comment


          • Aidokea
            Aidokea commented
            Editing a comment
            Democrats...

        • #81
          Originally posted by Ex Army MP View Post

          You wrote some interesting things here and I believe your analysis is fair. But as others have pointed out, other countries have more gang violence and also more instances of cops being shot by citizens. So it is relative.

          Also, I am never one to respond to police shootings with a deflection like " what about Chicago" because 1) it's apples to oranges and 2) we can walk and chew gum at the same time.

          However, I do think it's relevant in the sense that it calls out the media bias which, IMO, is anti-police. I believe that lawmakers too have an agenda and the media are complicit in it. Because what they appear to be doing is making police shootings appear to be at epidemic levels when we all know that they aren't. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be addressed but they are nowhere near what they are being made out to be. OTOH, the city of Philadelphia will shatter their previous homicide rate and you have toddlers being killed daily by gun violence. These stories are covered by the media, but nowhere near at the rate that police shootings are, and I do not see Facebook memes honoring the toddlers who are killed by such gang violence. This IS an epidemic and to not cover it as such reeks of an agenda. I mean, the Brooklyn Park MN city manager was fired for saying the wrong thing at the podium yet the mayor, DA, and police chief in Philly all still have jobs. Something is wrong with this picture and we all know what it is.
          I don't know what's wrong with this picture, would you care to elaborate?
          Last edited by retired137; 04-15-2021, 08:35 AM.

          Comment


          • #82
            Originally posted by retired137 View Post

            I don't know what's wrong with this picture, would you care to elaborate?
            When bad policing is framed as the rule rather than the exception that it is and daily gang violence is framed as the exception rather than the rule that it is, there is clearly an agenda.

            We all want to root out bad policing but those with an agenda want to frame it as such an out of control epidemic that some reps in Congress have gone as far as to suggest banning traffic stops for minor violations. I would think that a retired LEO like yourself who probably built some great cases that started out as something innocuous would recognize this and understand the perils of such a ridiculous policy.


            "Jerry, just remember, it’s not a lie if you believe it". George Constanza.

            Comment


            • #83
              Originally posted by Ex Army MP View Post

              When bad policing is framed as the rule rather than the exception that it is and daily gang violence is framed as the exception rather than the rule that it is, there is clearly an agenda.

              We all want to root out bad policing but those with an agenda want to frame it as such an out of control epidemic that some reps in Congress have gone as far as to suggest banning traffic stops for minor violations. I would think that a retired LEO like yourself who probably built some great cases that started out as something innocuous would recognize this and understand the perils of such a ridiculous policy.
              He doesn’t.

              Comment


              • #84
                Originally posted by CCCSD View Post

                He doesn’t.

                Comment


                • #85
                  This one has inspired my first post in, ages...here goes. OK, Lt. Nazario had a slew of chances to stop in the proverbial 'Well Lit Location' well before he reached the now-infamous B.P. Station. Me thinks, as noted by several of you, he had an agenda.

                  This happened in my neck of the woods, sort of..I live in Chesterfield County, Va, and the stop occurred smack dab in the middle of Windsor, which is about 55 miles Southeast of me as the crow flies, about 70 miles by road. Windsor's also located on US 460, which is just about a straight shot from Petersburg to Suffolk, and an oft-used short-cut to and from the beach for RIC and Tri-City area residents. U.S. 460's well traveled and busy (As well as a somewhat infamous death-trap due to it's ancient lane separation technology, but that's a story for another time)

                  Windsor is about 10 miles west of Suffolk, and is a very busy little burg. It's bisected by and extends for about 2 miles along 460. As it's been a good while since I've been through Windsor, I hit up Google Maps for a bit of memory jogging and research.

                  The BP station where Lt. Nazario finally stopped is within sight of the town hall, and is just about dead center of what I think of as 'Old Windsor'...the original little town that existed before it annexed a goodly hunk of Isle of Wight County, and extended it's town limits eastward, towards Suffolk. It's about ¾ of mile form the western town line, and (This is important) a scosh more than a mile and a half from the eastern town line.

                  Lt. Nazario had to have been west-bound. Windsor cops don't normally patrol outside the town limits, and Windsor's western town line, as I noted, is just about ¾ of a mile west of the BP Station...you can, in fact, almost see the sign for the BP from the western town limits. A mile and a half would have taken him well beyond the BP...almost to the eastern town limits, in fact.

                  For the incident to have happened as reported he had to have been westbound, and had to have been lit up not long at all after he crossed the eastern town line. Now there's a stretch of not all that well lit rural highway just inside the eastern limits, but the furthest he'd have had to have driven before reaching the first 'Well Lit Area'...a good sized shopping center containing a Food Lion and several other stores...would have been a half mile. This shopping center is a good mile and a quarter east of the BP station.

                  There are numerous other businesses lining 460 between the shopping center and the BP station as well...the Lt. had ample opportunity to stop before reaching the BP station. On top of that, there are street lights on 460 between the shopping center and the BP station.

                  Of course, he could have just pulled over as soon as the blue lights came on..shoulder's plenty wide.

                  Lt. Nazario could have just pulled over, and complied. It would have been a five minute stop. And Officer Gutierrez missed several chances, it seems, to de-escalate the situation. And if the Lt was, in fact, looking for a pay-day, the officer seems to have walked right into his trap.

                  Comment


                  • PtownVAMike
                    PtownVAMike commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I know exactly where that Food Lion is. I live in Portsmouth, but I know the Windsor area a decent bit.

                • #86
                  Originally posted by photone View Post
                  This one has inspired my first post in, ages...here goes. OK, Lt. Nazario had a slew of chances to stop in the proverbial 'Well Lit Location' well before he reached the now-infamous B.P. Station. Me thinks, as noted by several of you, he had an agenda.

                  This happened in my neck of the woods, sort of..I live in Chesterfield County, Va, and the stop occurred smack dab in the middle of Windsor, which is about 55 miles Southeast of me as the crow flies, about 70 miles by road. Windsor's also located on US 460, which is just about a straight shot from Petersburg to Suffolk, and an oft-used short-cut to and from the beach for RIC and Tri-City area residents. U.S. 460's well traveled and busy (As well as a somewhat infamous death-trap due to it's ancient lane separation technology, but that's a story for another time)

                  Windsor is about 10 miles west of Suffolk, and is a very busy little burg. It's bisected by and extends for about 2 miles along 460. As it's been a good while since I've been through Windsor, I hit up Google Maps for a bit of memory jogging and research.

                  The BP station where Lt. Nazario finally stopped is within sight of the town hall, and is just about dead center of what I think of as 'Old Windsor'...the original little town that existed before it annexed a goodly hunk of Isle of Wight County, and extended it's town limits eastward, towards Suffolk. It's about ¾ of mile form the western town line, and (This is important) a scosh more than a mile and a half from the eastern town line.

                  Lt. Nazario had to have been west-bound. Windsor cops don't normally patrol outside the town limits, and Windsor's western town line, as I noted, is just about ¾ of a mile west of the BP Station...you can, in fact, almost see the sign for the BP from the western town limits. A mile and a half would have taken him well beyond the BP...almost to the eastern town limits, in fact.

                  For the incident to have happened as reported he had to have been westbound, and had to have been lit up not long at all after he crossed the eastern town line. Now there's a stretch of not all that well lit rural highway just inside the eastern limits, but the furthest he'd have had to have driven before reaching the first 'Well Lit Area'...a good sized shopping center containing a Food Lion and several other stores...would have been a half mile. This shopping center is a good mile and a quarter east of the BP station.

                  There are numerous other businesses lining 460 between the shopping center and the BP station as well...the Lt. had ample opportunity to stop before reaching the BP station. On top of that, there are street lights on 460 between the shopping center and the BP station.

                  Of course, he could have just pulled over as soon as the blue lights came on..shoulder's plenty wide.

                  Lt. Nazario could have just pulled over, and complied. It would have been a five minute stop. And Officer Gutierrez missed several chances, it seems, to de-escalate the situation. And if the Lt was, in fact, looking for a pay-day, the officer seems to have walked right into his trap.

                  Wow. That's quite the analysis. Completely unnecessary though, as it turns out.

                  I've never been anywhere near Windsor, VA...but I did watch the bodycam video(s), and the officer mentions the exact location where the incident occurred.

                  According to the bodycam footage, the officer had just left "Cost Plus" (Cost Plus World Market) on Windsor Blvd (rt 460) when he saw Nazario pull out of Food Lion onto Windsor Blvd (rt 460). The officer noticed the missing tag and initiated the traffic stop. Nazario continued on 460 for 1.1 miles to the BP station on the right.

                  So the shopping center you mentioned is actually where Nazario originally came from before the stop. You are correct, however, that there are several small businesses (mostly banks) along that stretch.

                  Comment


                  • #87
                    Originally posted by photone View Post
                    This one has inspired my first post in, ages...here goes. OK, Lt. Nazario had a slew of chances to stop in the proverbial 'Well Lit Location' well before he reached the now-infamous B.P. Station. Me thinks, as noted by several of you, he had an agenda.

                    This happened in my neck of the woods, sort of..I live in Chesterfield County, Va, and the stop occurred smack dab in the middle of Windsor, which is about 55 miles Southeast of me as the crow flies, about 70 miles by road. Windsor's also located on US 460, which is just about a straight shot from Petersburg to Suffolk, and an oft-used short-cut to and from the beach for RIC and Tri-City area residents. U.S. 460's well traveled and busy (As well as a somewhat infamous death-trap due to it's ancient lane separation technology, but that's a story for another time)

                    Windsor is about 10 miles west of Suffolk, and is a very busy little burg. It's bisected by and extends for about 2 miles along 460. As it's been a good while since I've been through Windsor, I hit up Google Maps for a bit of memory jogging and research.

                    The BP station where Lt. Nazario finally stopped is within sight of the town hall, and is just about dead center of what I think of as 'Old Windsor'...the original little town that existed before it annexed a goodly hunk of Isle of Wight County, and extended it's town limits eastward, towards Suffolk. It's about ¾ of mile form the western town line, and (This is important) a scosh more than a mile and a half from the eastern town line.

                    Lt. Nazario had to have been west-bound. Windsor cops don't normally patrol outside the town limits, and Windsor's western town line, as I noted, is just about ¾ of a mile west of the BP Station...you can, in fact, almost see the sign for the BP from the western town limits. A mile and a half would have taken him well beyond the BP...almost to the eastern town limits, in fact.

                    For the incident to have happened as reported he had to have been westbound, and had to have been lit up not long at all after he crossed the eastern town line. Now there's a stretch of not all that well lit rural highway just inside the eastern limits, but the furthest he'd have had to have driven before reaching the first 'Well Lit Area'...a good sized shopping center containing a Food Lion and several other stores...would have been a half mile. This shopping center is a good mile and a quarter east of the BP station.

                    There are numerous other businesses lining 460 between the shopping center and the BP station as well...the Lt. had ample opportunity to stop before reaching the BP station. On top of that, there are street lights on 460 between the shopping center and the BP station.

                    Of course, he could have just pulled over as soon as the blue lights came on..shoulder's plenty wide.

                    Lt. Nazario could have just pulled over, and complied. It would have been a five minute stop. And Officer Gutierrez missed several chances, it seems, to de-escalate the situation. And if the Lt was, in fact, looking for a pay-day, the officer seems to have walked right into his trap.
                    That's a pretty good observation. I can't wait to hear how he developed the plan. Was it specific for that part of Winsdor?

                    Comment


                    • #88
                      However, I do think it's relevant in the sense that it calls out the media bias which, IMO, is anti-police. I believe that lawmakers too have an agenda and the media are complicit in it. Because what they appear to be doing is making police shootings appear to be at epidemic levels when we all know that they aren't. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be addressed but they are nowhere near what they are being made out to be. OTOH, the city of Philadelphia will shatter their previous homicide rate and you have toddlers being killed daily by gun violence. These stories are covered by the media, but nowhere near at the rate that police shootings are, and I do not see Facebook memes honoring the toddlers who are killed by such gang violence. This IS an epidemic and to not cover it as such reeks of an agenda. I mean, the Brooklyn Park MN city manager was fired for saying the wrong thing at the podium yet the mayor, DA, and police chief in Philly all still have jobs. Something is wrong with this picture and we all know what it is.
                      We can chew gum and walk at the same time. Multiple things can be true all at the same time.

                      It can be true that there are problems with violence and dependence in black communities AND it can be true that there are problems with how American society has marginalized black communities.

                      Why are we so determined to be right instead of be curious?

                      Let's use this analogy. I'm a teacher. American test scores when compared to other industrialized countries are lower than we would hope. Does that mean there are endemic problems in public education? Or are test scores indicative of larger societal problems? Could it be true that there are various factors that are affecting education outcomes in America? Maybe there are problems in public education systems AND there are problems within certain communities affecting test scores that are outside the control of the school systems. It doesn't mean that school systems shouldn't attempt to determine how they can do things better. If just threw my hands up and said, "Well, these problems are out of my control. There's nothing I can do about it." That would be a bad mentality to bring into teaching because it might cause me to feel defeated and apathetic about my job.

                      I guess what I'm saying is why are focused on surface level arguments and answers? The answer is that's it's easier to do that then to try to face difficult and complex realities. It's easier to say "just obey the law" or "all cops are racist" because that way we don't actually have to consider why these things are happening in the first place.

                      I heard someone in our break room say "the rioting is hurting their own cause." Well who is "they?" There are many activists that want nothing to do with the violence/rioting and who are working hard to stop it within their own communities. And likewise there are many looters/rioters that are looting because they just want a TV or a bottle of Jack, and they are using the unrest as an open door to be criminals.

                      If we are always defining each other in the most extreme and divisive ways, then we our contributing to those narratives by engaging in that most surface of conversations, and it just repeats and repeats and repeats.

                      Comment


                      • #89
                        Originally posted by iconoclaste View Post
                        ...there are problems with how American society has marginalized black communities.
                        How EXACTLY do you choose to define "American society"?

                        Because I am an American, and I certainly haven't "marginalized black communities"...

                        Comment


                        • DM206
                          DM206 commented
                          Editing a comment
                          This kind of defensiveness, taking every comment about issues facing the country as some kind of personal criticism, is part of why it's so difficult to have a productive conversation about these issues. YOU are not "American society." You are an individual. So whatever you have or have not done as an individual says nothing about society as a whole, and vice versa.

                          In my opinion, American society over-values the accumulation of fame and material wealth. I personally do NOT share those values. See the difference?

                      • #90
                        Perhaps Whites are just sick and tired of being blamed for everything. I didn’t put guns into their hands. I don’t loot stores at the drop of a hat. I don’t abandon families at a whim. I don’t prey on others, roam in gangs, murder in the name of race, excuse crime because of...race.

                        Comment


                        • DM206
                          DM206 commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Please do not presume to speak for all white people. You don't.

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