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Army Lt pulled over by VA police sues them

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  • #61
    I watched the video a couple times before it went viral. Since the body cam video I watched was either edited or wasn't activated prior to the blue lights coming on I had questions. When I make stops, I turn the body camera on before I light them up but maybe that's just me. My first question was , what happened before the video started? If this officer was high speed pursuing the LT it would make sense to do a felony stop once he pulled over. But I listened to the audio and the cop says "speed is 18mph" I wouldn't consider 18mph as someone attempting to evade me, but again maybe the camera turned on after the action. The first issue I saw was if you decided to do a felony stop then do it the right way, walking up to the drivers door and giving commands isn't what any of us were taught as a proper felony stop.

    Second, the LT had his hands visible and out of the window the entire time the cop had his gun drawn & he was in uniform, I would think that the hands in plain view and seeing the LT in uniform would have dropped the threat level a bit- Lets compare it to the FHP trooper who pulled over the Miami cop in his marked cruiser. in full uniform .at gunpoint. And before anyone says it, yes i have seen the video of the Oregon Trooper shootout with the guy in fatigues, but lets be real that was a rare occasion.

    The LT did what agencies nationwide have preached for years about police impersonators, if you don't feel safe turn your flashers on and slowly drive to a well lit / populated area. If the reason for the stop was only the tags not being visible and you had NOTHING else, once you realized the tag was there you could tell the driver to roll down all the windows and make your approach to explain the reason for the stop.

    The guy straight up says im scared to get out of the car while the cop has his gun on him.... reasonable. You guys may not want to believe it or understand it, but the reality is due to so many OIS of black people being national news, a lot of black people have a reason to be afraid during their encounter with police. He asked for the reason he was stopped and wasnt given one, is it unreasonable to think that maybe if the officer simply said "I stopped you for improper display of tags" that maybe that would have put the LT at ease and he would be willing to exit the car without a gun in his face?

    Next, while his hands are still visible out of the car while asking for a supervisor and for the reason he was stopped, he gets OC'ed. I would say that was excessive especially after the cop sprayed him 4 additional times as if one burst of OC isn't effective. Its not like your trying to kill a bug with hair spray by drowning it, additional burst aren't going to increase the effect. The rookie officer realized that his partner had escalated the situation as you can tell by his calm demeanor and trying to reason with the LT to exit the vehicle.

    Finally, If the LT's crime and "non compliance" with the stop was so bad that he needed to be held at gunpoint and OC'ed, why was he release with a warning instead of being arrested? My money would bet on its because the cop knew he went overboard. If there are no additional factors to this stop other than not being able to see his tag its simple to say the cop overreacted and is now being held accountable for that. Sometimes we have to admit that in the heat of the moment, cops can F-up sometimes. We can't always defend some clearly unwarranted actions.
    Last edited by lpstopper; 04-13-2021, 11:31 PM.
    "Its not what you know, its what you can prove."-Training Day

    "Game on, bitches. Whoop whoop, flash the lights, pull it over."

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Bing_Oh View Post

      The size of the town doesn't matter. The officer's weight doesn't matter. And, from watching the video, there were no "conflicting orders"...he was repeatedly told in very clear terms to exit the vehicle and failed to comply, and even continued to fail to follow orders after he was sprayed and even after he was removed from the vehicle. Me thinks your bias is showing, sir.
      Actually they both matter, particularly his weight. I suggest you research cognitive brain function in obese individuals, particularly in high stress situations. There is a cognitive decline.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by lpstopper View Post
        ...the reality is due to so many OIS of black people being national news, a lot of black people have a reason to be afraid during their encounter with police.
        ...aand there's the race card...

        Comment


        • DM206
          DM206 commented
          Editing a comment
          The comment you quoted is not "the race card"...lpstopper did not suggest that the officer was acting out of racism, only offering an explanation for the driver's behavior. It's basic understanding of human behavior, and basic empathy. Both of which are necessary for effective, reasonable law enforcement.

        • Aidokea
          Aidokea commented
          Editing a comment
          DM206, you're still not a cop. You won't get to lecture us about law enforcement unless and until you are able to pass the entire vetting process, get hired, pass your academy, pass FTO, pass probation, and make it past the rookie stage. At best, you would be a peer to some of us at that point. But those of us who have actually made it all the way through our law enforcement careers and retired honorably, we still won't need to hear it from you...
          Last edited by Aidokea; 04-14-2021, 10:12 AM.

        • DM206
          DM206 commented
          Editing a comment
          So your position is that basic understanding of human behavior is not necessary in your line of work?

          I didn't think I was saying anything controversial, beyond pointing out that you were misrepresenting the comment you quoted. And it doesn't require a 20 year career in law enforcement to recognize that this is what you were doing.

      • #64
        The cop hate crowd would do well to realize the difference between violations of policy, and violations of criminal law.

        You can nit-pick the officer's policy compliance all you want, but that doesn't make his actions criminal.

        The criminal's actions, on the other hand, were...well, criminal- refusing to stop immediately, refusing to exit the vehicle, and resisting arrest, are all arrestable criminal offenses.

        Comment


        • #65
          Originally posted by Aidokea View Post

          ...aand there's the race card...
          This card?

          https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...rcover-protest

          Last edited by retired137; 04-14-2021, 08:48 AM.

          Comment


          • #66
            A little-discussed aspect of situations like this, is the generational pattern of poor parenting that propagates situations like this, creating a self-fulfilling problem.

            I'm talking about parents that choose to brainwash their children from birth that the police are bad people out to get them because of their apparent skin color, that disobeying lawful commands from the police and/or engaging police as if it were some kind of a "contest" is appropriate, and that assuming the role of "victim" as a result of their own poor decisions is a financial opportunity...

            Comment


            • Aidokea
              Aidokea commented
              Editing a comment
              To put it another way, losing a fight that you started, does not make you a victim...

            • retired137
              retired137 commented
              Editing a comment
              There is a clear winner here, unfortunately there is a clear loser too.

          • #67
            The rest of the body cam footage

            https://www.facebook.com/Copslife/vi...58529297996939


            Since some people need to be told by notes in crayon .......Don't PM me with without prior permission. If you can't discuss the situation in the open forum ----it must not be that important

            My new word for the day is FOCUS, when someone irritates you tell them to FOCUS

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            • #68

              Comment


              • #69
                Police officers are better educated, better vetted, better trained, and more aware of public opinion that ever before. We deal with situations far beyond our scope with overall excellent outcomes. That chances of being involved in a use of force with a LEO in this country compared to the number of citizen/police interactions is infinitesimally small (statistically, the chances of being killed by a LEO are a fraction of a percent, and that doesn't even take into account that most are legally justified). The reason that police are "being held accountable" more now is not because there is some kind of epidemic of police abuse in this country (as the media narrative would have people think) but because rare occurrences are now national headlines and officers have become sacrificial lambs to the wolves of Antifa and BLM because politicians have decided to bow down to mob rule.
                While it's true that being killed by an officer is infinitesimal, it's also true that the rate of civilians being killed by police is higher in the US than any other 1st world country. 33 deaths per million in the US vs 10 Canada, 1 Germany, 0 Norway.

                There were 1100 people killed by police in 2019 in the US. In Japan (about 40% the population size of the US) there were two (yes 2 total people killed by police) in all of 2019.Germany (about a 1/6) of the US population had 11 total deaths by police.

                For young black men (ages 20-35) death by police is the 6th leading cause of death. 1 in 1000 young black men will be killed by police vs .39 white men.

                I mean I agree with much of the sentiment of your post. I do think that in general police are blamed for much that is out of their control which in my opinion is sort of the point of all this. How do we create a society in which there are less police encounters that are violent/dangerous/have the possibility of leading to death? This would of course be better for police and for citizens.

                I have always believed that this is much less of a police problem than it is a societal problem. The results of societal problems will emerge at the margins of society which is where police so often operate. But to just say well the chances of being killed are infinitesimal, so there's no problem, it's all just a media created illusion is only partly true in my opinion.

                And I know people really don't like bringing race up, but we have to admit that only 70 years ago police forces in America were the enforcement wing of overtly racist policies. The elderly generation of black Americans lived in a society where police were not to be trusted. That was their experience, that's the stories they told their kids, and that history and mentality was passed down. That's not something that just disappears, and that's sad because it has a huge impact on how police are viewed by black communities. To just say there is no problem seems like a pretty ignorant viewpoint. We will disagree how we solve that problem, but it's a problem none the less.

                Comment


                • #70
                  Obey the Law.
                  problem solved.

                  Comment


                • #71
                  Originally posted by Aidokea View Post

                  ...aand there's the race card...
                  You successfully disregarded every point I made to incorrectly say I’m pulling the race card. To help you out, the race card would have been valid if I said “He was only treated this way because he’s Black.” Me stating that many Black people (especially after the events of 2020) do not feel comfortable interacting with police is a fact.
                  "Its not what you know, its what you can prove."-Training Day

                  "Game on, bitches. Whoop whoop, flash the lights, pull it over."

                  Comment


                  • #72
                    Originally posted by iconoclaste View Post


                    And I know people really don't like bringing race up, but we have to admit that only 70 years ago police forces in America were the enforcement wing of overtly racist policies. The elderly generation of black Americans lived in a society where police were not to be trusted. That was their experience, that's the stories they told their kids, and that history and mentality was passed down. That's not something that just disappears, and that's sad because it has a huge impact on how police are viewed by black communities. To just say there is no problem seems like a pretty ignorant viewpoint. We will disagree how we solve that problem, but it's a problem none the less.
                    Bingo.
                    "Its not what you know, its what you can prove."-Training Day

                    "Game on, bitches. Whoop whoop, flash the lights, pull it over."

                    Comment


                    • #73
                      Originally posted by iconoclaste View Post
                      While it's true that being killed by an officer is infinitesimal, it's also true that the rate of civilians being killed by police is higher in the US than any other 1st world country. 33 deaths per million in the US vs 10 Canada, 1 Germany, 0 Norway.

                      There were 1100 people killed by police in 2019 in the US. In Japan (about 40% the population size of the US) there were two (yes 2 total people killed by police) in all of 2019.Germany (about a 1/6) of the US population had 11 total deaths by police.

                      For young black men (ages 20-35) death by police is the 6th leading cause of death. 1 in 1000 young black men will be killed by police vs .39 white men.

                      I mean I agree with much of the sentiment of your post. I do think that in general police are blamed for much that is out of their control which in my opinion is sort of the point of all this. How do we create a society in which there are less police encounters that are violent/dangerous/have the possibility of leading to death? This would of course be better for police and for citizens.

                      I have always believed that this is much less of a police problem than it is a societal problem. The results of societal problems will emerge at the margins of society which is where police so often operate. But to just say well the chances of being killed are infinitesimal, so there's no problem, it's all just a media created illusion is only partly true in my opinion.

                      And I know people really don't like bringing race up, but we have to admit that only 70 years ago police forces in America were the enforcement wing of overtly racist policies. The elderly generation of black Americans lived in a society where police were not to be trusted. That was their experience, that's the stories they told their kids, and that history and mentality was passed down. That's not something that just disappears, and that's sad because it has a huge impact on how police are viewed by black communities. To just say there is no problem seems like a pretty ignorant viewpoint. We will disagree how we solve that problem, but it's a problem none the less.
                      It's very difficult to compare certain societal issues from one country to another because of what are frequently huge difference in culture. For example, Japanese culture (where there's a huge emphasis on politeness and social conformity) is almost alien compared to American culture...the police in Japan are viewed as not to even be spoken back to, let alone physically-resisted against. Many countries are much more racially, financially, and religiously homogeneous than the US while having fewer inherent freedoms. So, I hesitate to compare our problems in the US with the problems in other nations.

                      I do believe that we're facing much more of a cultural problem than simply a police problem. I believe that certain segments of the population have been taught victimhood, disrespect for society and others, selfishness, and a lack of self-worth, all of which contributes heavily to what we're seeing in this country today.

                      That being said, I never said or even implied that there was NO problem with law enforcement in the United States. No system created by humans is perfect, LE included, and we always have room to improve. However, I say with great confidence that, overall, the narrative that there is an epidemic of police abuse and racism is blatantly false. Are there bad cops? Absolutely. Are there bad departments? Almost certainly (though not all officers, even in "bad" departments are necessarily bad themselves). Is the US system of policing and criminal justice inherently abusive, racist, and need to be torn down (which is exactly what many "police reform" advocates have come out and said)? Quite simply, no.
                      Last edited by Bing_Oh; 04-14-2021, 03:56 PM.
                      "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
                      -Friedrich Nietzsche

                      Comment


                      • #74
                        Originally posted by CCCSD View Post
                        Obey the Law.
                        problem solved.
                        What a novel concept!

                        Comment


                        • #75
                          Originally posted by Aidokea View Post

                          What a novel concept!
                          Ya think?

                          Good to see that side is demanding apartheid. It’s on them...

                          Comment

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