A thought on Tim Dees courtesy thread

[fair witness]

I was very happy to see that post in Ask A Cop, and wanted to put in .02, but I do know the rules, so...
Just a thought for you folks:
When people come here with their bad cop experiences, some may indeed not be telling the whole story. Others may be plain wrong. Some may be bashers or trolls.
But I humbly submit there could be another reason.
Some may be coming to you, in this anonymous but very honest setting, in hopes that you will restore their faith in LE. They have had a genuine bummer of an experience, whether or not some of it may have been of their own making. They may well have run into a cop who was inexperienced, overtired, or even (gasp) a genuine butthead. C'mon, there are such.
When you respond with "Just behave yourself, jerk!" "I never second guess a brother, so I'm assuming you're wrong," "You're probably lying," or "Get lost, ya troll," you CONFIRM their bummer.
Matter of fact, you underline it in red magic marker. And the world gets that much more 'us v. them.' A teachable moment is lost.
I'm not saying everyone on here is like that. But it happens enough that the really huge question I came here carrying in my heart, I have never yet spoken of, and I've been a member a year now or so.
It concerns police misconduct and harrassment. There are two sides to it and I know both. I've read the transcripts, the warrants, the continuation report, bla bla bla. I've had great conversations with cops about it face to face, and we have understood each other.
But on here, I know pretty much what I would get. Because, hey, anybody who raises such an issue is a lying waste of skin, right? Authority's always right, right?
c'mon, I know y'all are brighter and better than that. I don't need your absolution or reassurance; I know the story I'm talking about, nobody here did it and I surely don't blame all cops.
But I did join the conversation here hoping, on some level, to get my faith restored. And I'm not talking about everyone, mind you, but the clannish and acerbic tone here makes the site less effective at doing that than it could be.
Okay, whew, thanks for hearing me out. Best to all.
annie

[Consultant]

Hold on a second.

***Gets popcorn and soda***

Ok, now I'm ready.

[LongLegz]

I was very happy to see that post in Ask A Cop, and wanted to put in .02, but I do know the rules, so...
Just a thought for you folks:
When people come here with their bad cop experiences, some may indeed not be telling the whole story. Others may be plain wrong. Some may be bashers or trolls.
But I humbly submit there could be another reason.
Some may be coming to you, in this anonymous but very honest setting, in hopes that you will restore their faith in LE. They have had a genuine bummer of an experience, whether or not some of it may have been of their own making. They may well have run into a cop who was inexperienced, overtired, or even (gasp) a genuine butthead. C'mon, there are such.
When you respond with "Just behave yourself, jerk!" "I never second guess a brother, so I'm assuming you're wrong," "You're probably lying," or "Get lost, ya troll," you CONFIRM their bummer.
Matter of fact, you underline it in red magic marker. And the world gets that much more 'us v. them.' A teachable moment is lost.
I'm not saying everyone on here is like that. But it happens enough that the really huge question I came here carrying in my heart, I have never yet spoken of, and I've been a member a year now or so.
It concerns police misconduct and harrassment. There are two sides to it and I know both. I've read the transcripts, the warrants, the continuation report, bla bla bla. I've had great conversations with cops about it face to face, and we have understood each other.
But on here, I know pretty much what I would get. Because, hey, anybody who raises such an issue is a lying waste of skin, right? Authority's always right, right?
c'mon, I know y'all are brighter and better than that. I don't need your absolution or reassurance; I know the story I'm talking about, nobody here did it and I surely don't blame all cops.
But I did join the conversation here hoping, on some level, to get my faith restored. And I'm not talking about everyone, mind you, but the clannish and acerbic tone here makes the site less effective at doing that than it could be.
Okay, whew, thanks for hearing me out. Best to all.
annie

As non-LEO, I will say (without obvious bias) that a lot of the cops on here do seem to react cynically toward the experiences with police that random people come on here to describe, however I understand the behavior. It seems that 50% - 75% of the people that come on here sharing their experiences with the police are those who are trying to find out how NOT to have to take responsibility for their unlawful actions and/or blame the officer(s) they had contact with for the trouble that only THEY (or their loved ones) got themselves into...

I.E.

"OMG I can't believe I got pulled over for doing 100 in a 55!".

Or...

There was that guy that time that was here with all these videos he'd recorded of himself from his car OBVIOUSLY purposely baiting different officers with the nastiest attitude and then trying to make an issue of their (rightful) reactions as if he was a total victim of "police harassment".

Or...

There was that guy who thought the police were to blame for his mom's updated registration stickers not being afixed to her tag and admitted he had gone up to the police station to act a fool and confront the officer who'd given her the ticket and then felt the need to come online to do the same thing in a VERY melodramatic fashion.

Or...

There was that guy who basically proceeded to write a thesis all about how he should NOT have gotten a ticket for running a stop sign in a private parking lot although he DID admittedly run the sign.

Ask-A-Cop is always very entertaining to me for reasons like that...it's seemingly just random people who want to find ways to get out of the consequences of their unlawful actions and blame someone else for what they have done.

I think that cops automatically have a knee-jerk reaction to defend other cops or to err towards the side of the cop since they are cops, just like anyone who's apart of any group that is traditionally prone to receiving negative press might be.

[Smurfette_76]

Annie,

I've read what you've written and I've given it consideration. Here's what I personally think. I do not come here expecting posts made by the public to restore my faith in humanity, nor would I take a post here and take my issues out on a "real" person in public. This is the internet. Period. I see neither harassment nor misconduct here for one simple reason. This is the internet. If you stand up and walk away from your computer all of this can and will cease to be real. You can also click on another thread and not have to read what is being said...therefore YOU possess the power to determine how much (if at all) comments made by LEO and anyone else will affect you.

In addition, most of us are very blunt and straightforward, but I cannot speak for my fellow LEO here or anywhere else, only myself. If you come to me (here or real life) or unfortunately I have to go to you, I will be forthcoming and blunt. It is not in my nature to pander to people or tell them what they need to hear...that's what you have friends for.

Edited to add: Many people outside the LE spectrum do not understand that we don't like to second guess our "brothers" as you mentioned because unlike many professions, we know and understand this glass house we live in. We know what it means when one of "us" messes up because it affects all of us across the country, regardless of whom we actually work for. This isn't a job where we punch a timeclock or leave at the end of the day...this is a life for us...this is something that any vigilant cop knows that we're never "really" off duty. I also put my life on the line everyday. I say all that to say this: this *is* a brotherhood. When I was an accountant, I didn't expect to have to save a life or have mine saved...while I enjoyed the people I worked with, my life didn't depend on them. Now it does. Literally. That's what makes us clan-ish and that "us v. them" personality. It's our reality. Not yours. Ours. That's why most of us will not do what many civilians here seem to expect. We were not on the call, we don't know what happened, and we ALL know that we can't get the facts merely from one point of view. It's not that we think every other Officer is right, but it IS that we won't add to the tearing apart of our profession...we can't.

Maybe it's that very brotherhood that keeps us simply going every day...every minute. You can't understand what it's like to see what horrors and travesty that people will do to each other and themselves...many of it on purpose. When you dedicate yourself to this profession and you SEE what it's really like, then you can understand why we stick together. I'm not saying this to you to try and convince you of anything, but merely to try and express to you why we "are the way we are."

I probably haven't done a very good job of expressing myself, but I know what I've been trying to say. When you have a job that depends on clear, concise, direct, and candid communications, you don't just flip that on and off...it becomes the way you communicate. When i reply to persons here, I am not doing so with malice or ill will. You've asked me what I think and I'm going to tell you. IMHO, far too many people in this country attempt to sugarcoat what needs to be said. If someone comes here with something completely off the wall (not saying they are lying, saying they should honestly be able to figure that out w/o assistance from anyone) then I'm going to say such. If they need to be told "the truth" about how their actions are going to ruin their dreams of LE in the future, I'm going to tell them. I don't come into your life, stick my head in your living room via your computer and tell you how to live...you come on here, ask a question, and ask for it.

[fair witness]

That WAS a well-spoken answer, and I thank you. And I want to clarify that I was in no way trying to characterize anything on here in Ask a Cop as "misconduct" or "harrassment." You are so right, it's the Internet, and people should feel free to speak their minds. At that, it's YOUR part of the Internet.
And I believe I said up fron that I agree that a lot of the posts are people with less than savory agendas. But even some of them could perhaps be set straight in some way that doesn't leave them shaking their head and saying, Geez, see? They're (cops) ALL like that.
Because that distrust and disgust just makes your hard job all the more difficult.
I haven't been around here as long as I have without becoming well aware of what you say about how hard the job is, etc, etc. Doing a demanding job well and then being criticized for it is hard. I too have a job in which the entire profession is judged by the misdeeds of the few, but when I hear of those misdeeds I shake my head and redouble my efforts to do it right, i don't make excuses for the lunacy.
Again, thank you, Smurfette, for your response. You obviously took the time to give it some thought.
edit:
I also agree that there is too much sugarcoating and BS in this world. I don't think I was so much aiming this at those who are candid and direct, but at those who are gratuitously insulting. (Certainly wasn't thinking of you.) There's more than enough of THAT in this world too.

[texaschickeee]

Fair witness " When people come here with their bad cop experiences, some may indeed not be telling the whole story. '


OMG, no...NO NO

you cant believe that some would place themselves in a more favorable light to, *gulp* make others, speacially...cops..look bad!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????




who would have ever thought of such a thing.

In the story theres three sides...person one, person twos and the truth,
I woould tend to listen more to a cop then the ave. joe blow due to the nature of their work.

[fair witness]

Did I say I couldn't believe that, Texas? I thought I was agreeing with it...To a certain extent is it not just human nature to a) portray one's own side in the most favorable light possible and b) be more likely to believe the side told by one's mates, in whatever sense? (Meaning- women go to other women for sympathy with breakup tales, etc.)

[irishdep]

Most people we deal with don't tell us the truth so I think you can understand our skepticism when we read some of those threads. I do think courteous responses should be posted to the threads with legitimate questions but the threads that are complaining and bashing get what they deserve. IMO.

[willowdared]

The problem I see, is this is supposed to be a forum for law enforcement professionals to hang out and exchange ideas.

Is "Ask a Cop" a place for those trying to get into law enforcement?

Or is a place offering free legal advice?

If it's about free advice, then perhaps a board of volunteers could be developed, and those questions submitted via pm.

Otherwise, you're kinda asking people to "work" during their off time.

[Gene L]

Very few of us are qualified to give legal advice. Legal opinion, yes. And then, with so many states and jurisdictions represented, even opinion is questionable as to its applicability in another jurisdiction.

I think a lot of the "ask a cop" people are whining, but that's just my humble opinion. The kid who got busted for marijuana ON SCHOOL GROUNDS is typical. What legal advice does he expect? Us to tell him how to beat the rap (if there was a way.)

So, perhaps their expectations are as out of line as some of our replies.

[PhilipCal]

Annie,

I've read what you've written and I've given it consideration. Here's what I personally think. I do not come here expecting posts made by the public to restore my faith in humanity, nor would I take a post here and take my issues out on a "real" person in public. This is the internet. Period. I see neither harassment nor misconduct here for one simple reason. This is the internet. If you stand up and walk away from your computer all of this can and will cease to be real. You can also click on another thread and not have to read what is being said...therefore YOU possess the power to determine how much (if at all) comments made by LEO and anyone else will affect you.

In addition, most of us are very blunt and straightforward, but I cannot speak for my fellow LEO here or anywhere else, only myself. If you come to me (here or real life) or unfortunately I have to go to you, I will be forthcoming and blunt. It is not in my nature to pander to people or tell them what they need to hear...that's what you have friends for.

Edited to add: Many people outside the LE spectrum do not understand that we don't like to second guess our "brothers" as you mentioned because unlike many professions, we know and understand this glass house we live in. We know what it means when one of "us" messes up because it affects all of us across the country, regardless of whom we actually work for. This isn't a job where we punch a timeclock or leave at the end of the day...this is a life for us...this is something that any vigilant cop knows that we're never "really" off duty. I also put my life on the line everyday. I say all that to say this: this *is* a brotherhood. When I was an accountant, I didn't expect to have to save a life or have mine saved...while I enjoyed the people I worked with, my life didn't depend on them. Now it does. Literally. That's what makes us clan-ish and that "us v. them" personality. It's our reality. Not yours. Ours. That's why most of us will not do what many civilians here seem to expect. We were not on the call, we don't know what happened, and we ALL know that we can't get the facts merely from one point of view. It's not that we think every other Officer is right, but it IS that we won't add to the tearing apart of our profession...we can't.

Maybe it's that very brotherhood that keeps us simply going every day...every minute. You can't understand what it's like to see what horrors and travesty that people will do to each other and themselves...many of it on purpose. When you dedicate yourself to this profession and you SEE what it's really like, then you can understand why we stick together. I'm not saying this to you to try and convince you of anything, but merely to try and express to you why we "are the way we are."

I probably haven't done a very good job of expressing myself, but I know what I've been trying to say. When you have a job that depends on clear, concise, direct, and candid communications, you don't just flip that on and off...it becomes the way you communicate. When i reply to persons here, I am not doing so with malice or ill will. You've asked me what I think and I'm going to tell you. IMHO, far too many people in this country attempt to sugarcoat what needs to be said. If someone comes here with something completely off the wall (not saying they are lying, saying they should honestly be able to figure that out w/o assistance from anyone) then I'm going to say such. If they need to be told "the truth" about how their actions are going to ruin their dreams of LE in the future, I'm going to tell them. I don't come into your life, stick my head in your living room via your computer and tell you how to live...you come on here, ask a question, and ask for it.

That's eloquent, Smurf.

[PhilipCal]

Tim Dees Courtesy Thread.

Annie, you make some valid points in your post, as does Tim. Rather than say a whole lot more, I am going to refer you once more to Smurfette's reply. It pretty well covers how many of us feel, and more than covers my feelings on the subject.

[1042 Trooper]

From another angle, I am one who believes we as the police would be impotent and unable to do what we do, without the support of the public, plain and simple. It is through their CIVILIAN representatives we get our funding for equipment, salaries and training.

Without the public's benevolence, we would not have an officially declared National Law Enforcement Day, a National Memorial, a national death and disability benefit of more than $250,000, numerous rehab programs for disabled cops and on and on and on. Each of these perks was the result of a CIVILIAN, in a place of influence, who listened to the minions of other CIVILIANS who employed him. It wasn't other cops beging for these things, but CIVILIANS who did it for us. We should never lost sight of this.

So I say, ask us anything that comes to mind - we can either ignore it if we feel put on or put off or insulted or above it all. Or, we can read the question and ponder that perhaps, someone who really wants an answer, took the time to post it. Then, we can answer it to the best of our ability. Or not, if it's clearly a smarty pants or potty mouth who needs a place to vent. I think we can take it.

A final thought. To suggest our finest support group - the public - should not seek our help here, is to also suggest that we likewise, should not seek their help, when we need it.

Remember, that badge you wear, is theirs - not yours.

[mavriktu]

I think that we tend to get our backs up when the title of the thread is a statement of fact. Such as "Abuse of Authority" or such. We deal with complaints and accusations on a daily basis and it bothers us that people question us. We have to remember that most of the people asking questions are no LEO's and don't understand this. So take a deep breath and read.

Deep Sigh case in point
http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67913

[PhilipCal]

From another angle, I am one who believes we as the police would be impotent and unable to do what we do, without the support of the public, plain and simple. It is through their CIVILIAN representatives we get our funding for equipment, salaries and training.

Without the public's benevolence, we would not have an officially declared National Law Enforcement Day, a National Memorial, a national death and disability benefit of more than $250,000, numerous rehab programs for disabled cops and on and on and on. Each of these perks was the result of a CIVILIAN, in a place of influence, who listened to the minions of other CIVILIANS who employed him. It wasn't other cops beging for these things, but CIVILIANS who did it for us. We should never lost sight of this.

So I say, ask us anything that comes to mind - we can either ignore it if we feel put on or put off or insulted or above it all. Or, we can read the question and ponder that perhaps, someone who really wants an answer, took the time to post it. Then, we can answer it to the best of our ability. Or not, if it's clearly a smarty pants or potty mouth who needs a place to vent. I think we can take it.

A final thought. To suggest our finest support group - the public - should not seek our help here, is to also suggest that we likewise, should not seek their help, when we need it.

Remember, that badge you wear, is theirs - not yours.

Great thoughts, Troop. Definitely,points to ponder. Many thanks.