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  • I'll readily accept the notion that a portion of the troublemakers were not Trump adherents but anarchists and sov cits and even disguised antifa but the greater majority? I dunno about that. I'll need more convincing before I dismiss the weeks of online promises I read from hardcore MAGA types to go F things up in DC on Jan 6....
    If it is all beautiful you can’t believe it. Things aren’t that way.

    -Ernest Hemingway

    Comment


    • scotty_appleton814
      scotty_appleton814 commented
      Editing a comment
      I agree. There could have been a few morons from both right AND left inciting violence. But by and large that crowd nothing more than MAGA fans. Period

  • https://www.azcentral.com/story/news...ol/6568513002/
    This Space For Rent

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Ratatatat View Post
      I'll readily accept the notion that a portion of the troublemakers were not Trump adherents but anarchists and sov cits and even disguised antifa but the greater majority? I dunno about that. I'll need more convincing before I dismiss the weeks of online promises I read from hardcore MAGA types to go F things up in DC on Jan 6....
      Well here is the issue in light of your prophetic Civil War 2.0 thread that tragically got deleted.

      Currently 60% of the American public believe this last election was rigged.

      POLL: 60 PERCENT Of Americans Believe The 2020 ELECTION WAS RIGGED (thedailyfodder.com)

      Included in that number is 30% who identify as democrats.

      Huge Number of Democrats Believe Presidential Race Was ‘Rigged’ to Oust Trump - News Punch

      With this country being locked down for nine months, and a vast amount of Americans who were no longer permitted to go to work in order to feed their family or pay their bills, including huge amounts of small businesses, things are going to go wrong.

      In a representative government the people only have one way to participate/change laws and or policies and it is by their vote. Their vote is their only voice. If you have a population of 60% that now believes their voice has been silenced or manipulated to a certain outcome and you have also taken away their ability to provide for themselves for the last nine months with no end in sight, all you are going to get is hopelessness/anger.

      With anger and hopelessness you are only going to get unrest. What's next after that? Well we are beginning to see the fruits of what's next.

      I don't care what side of the aisle anyone is on in this debate. Both sides though, should be truly concerned with the disenfranchisement of elections. Today the left side got the outcome they wanted with a democratic controlled government. But the winds change sometimes and don't think for a minute the other side will eventually use the same tactic and take over.

      The vote manipulation may be a total farce, but if enough people believe it, it could be the cause for the next civil war.
      Last edited by SOCAleo; 01-07-2021, 01:30 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Ratatatat View Post
        If I were to jump the fence at the WH, good chance I'd get shot.
        Plenty of examples of that happening on video with unarmed people who don't get shot. In fact I can't find any instances of an unarmed fence jumper being shot. Not one.

        If I were to forcibly enter my neighbor's house, good chance I'd get shot.
        Apples and oranges.

        If I were to rush the gate at my nearby nuclear power plant, good chance I'd get shot.
        Not if you were a clearly unarmed woman in broad daylight, on foot, highly doubtful.

        If I were to climb through a barricaded door into an inner chamber at the U.S. capitol, good chance I'd get shot.
        Interesting that there are numerous, numerous videos of disruptive protesters being arrested inside the chamber over the years, when it's actually full of Congressmen, with various props and instruments in their hands and none of them needed to be shot (nor were they). So apparently, no, there is NOT a good chance at all that would happen.




        The video of the shooting itself clearly does NOT show that Mrs. Babbitt presented an imminent threat of serious bodily injury or death in the moments leading up to her shooting, and any objective and reasonable law enforcement officer would conclude the same after watching the videos of the incident. Merely "climbing through" a barricaded door does not rise to the level of presenting a risk of death or serious bodily injury. It just doesn't. People saying otherwise have either not watched the video, or are quibbling and playing devil's advocate for political (or other) reasons. There were already people inside the entire building, including in the Senate chamber and the Congressional offices, do you think they should or could have been shot just because they were in an "inner chamber" at the U.S. Capitol? Should the unarmed man posing in a reclined position at Pelosi's desk have been summarily shot just because he was in an "inner chamber" of the building? (hint: the answer is an emphatic "NO" from a law perspective).

        Those are the rules.
        Before you find yourself behind bars, you might want to go back and bone up on Tennessee v. Garner if you actually think shooting a clearly unarmed person who is not presenting an imminent risk of death or serious bodily injury falls within "the rules" for cops in the United States. Spoiler alert: If you are merely climbing through a glass door with no weapon in hand, in a well-lit daytime hallway populated by at least four armed, armored cops (and no one else), and you do not present the triangle of "Opportunity, Ability and Jeopardy" to inflict death or serious bodily injury on someone, then the actual RULES are that deadly force is expressly NOT allowed. This is so elementary that I could find any day-one student at any police academy or the crappiest junior college criminal justice program in the nation that would know this answer, and the name of the case law that supports it. This shooting was easily as egregious as the shooting of Daniel Shaver, which saw the officer involved stand trial for murder (as he should have).

        Could there conceivably be some information reasonably believed by the guy who pulled the trigger that made the shooting lawful? Maybe, but it had better be articulated perfectly, because the video doesn't show anything that merited what happened at all. If I was him, I'd get a lawyer ASAP, because he sure looks like a cowardly murderer at this stage. It's a GD tragedy that she is dead.

        As long as people sincerely believe they can change things by voting, they stay calm. They don’t storm the bastille. They don’t burst into the House chamber. They talk and they organize and they vote. But the opposite is also true. If people begin to believe that their democracy is fraudulent, if they conclude that voting is a charade, that the system is rigged and it’s run in secret by a small group of powerful dishonest people who are acting in their own interests, then God knows what could happen. Actually, we do know what could happen. It’s happening right now. It’s happened in countless other countries over countless centuries, and the cycle is always the same because human nature never changes.

        “Listen to us!” screams the population. “Shut up and do what you’re told,” reply their leaders. In the face of dissent, the first instinct of illegitimate leadership is to crack down on the population. But crackdowns never make it better. Instead, they always make the country more volatile and more dangerous. The people in charge rarely understand that. They don’t care to learn or listen because all of this conversation is a referendum on them and their leadership, so they clamp down harder. “Obey, I tell you. Obey!” This is the Romanov program. It ends badly every single time. But that doesn’t mean they won’t try it again. Of course, they will because it’s their nature. It’s how we got here in the first place.

        Millions of Americans sincerely believe the last election was fake. You can dismiss them as crazy, you can call them conspiracy theorists, you can kick them off Twitter, but that won’t change their minds. Rather than trying to change their minds to convince them and reassure them the system is real, that the democracy works as you would do if you cared about the country or the people who live here, our new leaders will try to silence them. - Tucker Carlson


        I could not have said it better myself. Literally half of the country believes the last election was illegitimate. This includes a significant number of Democrats. You cannot simply ridicule that away, you have to address it somehow. Form a commission and hear the evidence, it's either true, or it isn't. If it isn't true, then what do you have to lose? The precedent is there: We spent four years, ungodly amounts of wasted time and untold millions to investigate Trump, only to find out what anybody with two brain cells to rub together already knew: That his election was legitimate and not due to "RusSiaN InteRferEnCE". We watched this country burn in an orgy of violence like never before seen in history because of the demonstrably false premise that cops are systematically executing black people and our political "leaders" and media intentionally fed into that lie for their political and monetary gain. But an entire half of the country is expected to just shut up, smile and take the scorn and derision of left-wing politicians and media because getting rid of "Orange Man Bad" is worth any price, including the complete loss of faith in the democratic institutions of our country? Sorry, that ain't how it works, as people are now realizing.


        Be dangerous, and unpredictable... and make a lot of noise. - John Bush, Anthrax

        Comment


        • DM206
          DM206 commented
          Editing a comment
          I think it's important to ask why so many people feel the election was illegitimate. Were there actual irregularities that could affect the outcome? Is there an actual and legitimate dispute? Or do they believe the election is illegitimate because of misinformation that has been deliberately spread by sources they trust? The response to those questions should determine our response to the unrest. We address legitimate concerns and correct misinformation. That's it. We do not promote further uncertainty and misinformation with endless and unjustified inquiries.

          This violence was directly related to the belief that the election was tampered with or stolen. You are correct about that. Many of those involved may sincerely hold that belief. That itself does not legally excuse their unlawful behavior, but it also needs to be addressed at the source. We need to stop the political gamesmanship and tell the truth about the election with a unified voice. Some Republicans realized that yesterday and dropped their objections, and spoke against the violence and against the continued misinformation. We all need to follow that example.

        • DM206
          DM206 commented
          Editing a comment
          Consider, as a cop, you have someone who repeatedly tries to report a murder on 11/7/2020. The first 60 times he came forward you checked it out, the supposed victim is still alive, no evidence of any crime. The other dude is still hanging outside the station yelling about a murder and asking why the cops won't do anything about it. A crowd gathers and demands an investigation. Meanwhile, the supposed murder victim is now sitting inside the department lobby.

          Now, by your logic we should investigate because so many people believe that a crime took place. But that's not the standard. We need actual evidence, actual predication. The department's job at that point is to educate the public, give them the truth so they can stop listening to the nut job on the street corner.

        • Ratatatat
          Ratatatat commented
          Editing a comment
          "In fact I can't find any instances of an unarmed fence jumper being shot. Not one."

          Well, there was that guy with the comb last year....

          https://wtop.com/dc/2020/08/court-do...mber-incident/

      • Why is Rasmussen being used as a polling source? They are discredited and clearly partisan. Also, has anybody stopped and asked themselves why the leaders of the Trump legal team are spouting bat**** insane conspiracy theories. Maybe instead of blaming everyone else for what is happening, Conservatives should take a look in the mirror. And that goes for anyone by the way that thinks they know everything. That's the problem in this country. Nobody is willing to step into another's shoes. Nobody is willing to listen to the perspective of people that have different beliefs and experiences.

        Romney said it best last night: "The way you show voters respect is by telling them the truth."

        Comment


        • Originally posted by iconoclaste View Post
          Why is Rasmussen being used as a polling source? They are discredited and clearly partisan. Also, has anybody stopped and asked themselves why the leaders of the Trump legal team are spouting bat**** insane conspiracy theories. Maybe instead of blaming everyone else for what is happening, Conservatives should take a look in the mirror. And that goes for anyone by the way that thinks they know everything. That's the problem in this country. Nobody is willing to step into another's shoes. Nobody is willing to listen to the perspective of people that have different beliefs and experiences.
          Said the guy who just discounted the perspective of conservatives.

          Romney said it best last night: "The way you show voters respect is by telling them the truth."
          And, pray tell, what is that?
          Be dangerous, and unpredictable... and make a lot of noise. - John Bush, Anthrax

          Comment


          • This violence was directly related to the belief that the election was tampered with or stolen. You are correct about that. Many of those involved may sincerely hold that belief. That itself does not legally excuse their unlawful behavior, but it also needs to be addressed at the source. We need to stop the political gamesmanship and tell the truth about the election with a unified voice. Some Republicans realized that yesterday and dropped their objections, and spoke against the violence and against the continued misinformation. We all need to follow that example.
            The truth needs to be winnowed out with an investigation, it's not enough for politicians to say "trust us". People don't, and with damned good reason. Anything short of that isn't going to cut it. It's the same problem law enforcement agencies run into when they investigate their own shootings, it's a bad look and it does nothing to engender trust or confidence. Sorry if the word of some spineless go-along-to-get-along Republicans isn't enough, but clearly it's not going to be. We spent four years on a politically motivated investigation into Trump, we could have spent at least a week on holding hearings on the reams of evidence and affidavits in the hands of the Trump campaign. It's either not true, and we could put it to bed, or there is truth to it, and there needs to be a remedy. Again, HALF THE COUNTRY is not persuaded that their vote counted. That is an enormous problem that the reassuring words of MITT ROMNEY aren't going to assuage.
            Be dangerous, and unpredictable... and make a lot of noise. - John Bush, Anthrax

            Comment


            • DM206
              DM206 commented
              Editing a comment
              No one is saying "trust us." They are saying "bring forth the evidence." After more than 60 court cases, multiple hand recounts, and so on, your argument that "it just needs to be investigated so people can be convinced" rings a little hollow.

            • scotty_appleton814
              scotty_appleton814 commented
              Editing a comment
              No evidence in Trump campaign hands. They stated that multiple times during their court cases. Which is why they were thrown out left and right.

          • Well, yes I am discounting people like Lin Wood and Sidney Powell who are telling us that Pence should be arrested and that dominion voting systems are being controlled by foreign governments. Those are extraordinary claims and until these people can provide proof of these things, then they are doing a disservice to conservatives and our country. You can't make these kinds of claims without evidence. And if there is no evidence for them, people should not believe them. Pretty simple concept.

            Now laws being changed by judges about mail in ballots is a different thing to me. I can see the argument for why that would be problematic.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by SOCAleo View Post

              Well here is the issue in light of your prophetic Civil War 2.0 thread that tragically got deleted.

              Currently 60% of the American public believe this last election was rigged.

              POLL: 60 PERCENT Of Americans Believe The 2020 ELECTION WAS RIGGED (thedailyfodder.com)

              Included in that number is 30% who identify as democrats.

              Huge Number of Democrats Believe Presidential Race Was ‘Rigged’ to Oust Trump - News Punch

              With this country being locked down for nine months, and a vast amount of Americans who were no longer permitted to go to work in order to feed their family or pay their bills, including huge amounts of small businesses, things are going to go wrong.

              In a representative government the people only have one way to participate/change laws and or policies and it is by their vote. Their vote is their only voice. If you have a population of 60% that now believes their voice has been silenced or manipulated to a certain outcome and you have also taken away their ability to provide for themselves for the last nine months with no end in sight, all you are going to get is hopelessness/anger.

              With anger and hopelessness you are only going to get unrest. What's next after that? Well we are beginning to see the fruits of what's next.

              I don't care what side of the aisle anyone is on in this debate. Both sides though, should be truly concerned with the disenfranchisement of elections. Today the left side got the outcome they wanted with a democratic controlled government. But the winds change sometimes and don't think for a minute the other side will eventually use the same tactic and take over.

              The vote manipulation may be a total farce, but if enough people believe it, it could be the cause for the next civil war.
              Two news sources that have been vetted as unbiased. On another note there was a poster that followed certain groups and predicted this in a now closed thread. How was he able to foresee this?
              Last edited by retired137; 01-07-2021, 02:22 PM.

              Comment


              • Ratatatat
                Ratatatat commented
                Editing a comment
                Because I'm *gifted*.

            • Originally posted by retired137 View Post
              Two news sources that have been vetted as unbiased.
              Is there any news source that's "unbiased" anymore? That's part of the problem...information manipulation, political/ideological spin, and bias have tainted the "information" we receive, pitting people against one another and making people disbelieve everything that doesn't fit their personal opinion and narrative.
              "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
              -Friedrich Nietzsche

              Comment


              • BNWS
                BNWS commented
                Editing a comment
                Was there ever one?

              • scotty_appleton814
                scotty_appleton814 commented
                Editing a comment
                H l n!!!!!!!

              • Bing_Oh
                Bing_Oh commented
                Editing a comment
                Was there ever? Probably not TOTALLY unbiased, no, but it's definitely gotten progressively worse in that last several decades.

                I believe there are two watershed moments that destroyed unbiased journalism. The first was Watergate and the resignation of Nixon. The second was the advent of 24-hour news.

                Watergate gave the media the power to destroy the most powerful political figure in the country. Ever since then, every newsperson wants to be an "investigative journalist" looking for the next great story. The problem is that journalism has no checks-and-balances, so it's become a perfect example of "absolute power corrupt absolutely."

                24-hour news turned legitimate news into entertainment. When you have to create a constant stream of content, then it inevitably leads to the inclusion of speculation, opinion, and editorialization to fill the time (none of which is ever actually labeled as anything other than REAL NEWS). It also ends up including what are essentially minor stories being stretched into major content.

            • RE: the shooting. I'd be surprised if any charges were ever filed.

              Why? Because, when you peel back the layers from the onion that is the G, at the very core is one thing: a tiny lizard brain that will protect itself no matter what for the sole purpose of existing another day. So given this was an angry mob with unknown or nefarious intentions that breeched the outside perimeter, inside checkpoints, and was getting closer to the nerve center of elected representatives hiding in safe rooms, I simply don't foresee prosecutorial action.


              RE: Civil War 2.0. Y'all have any predictions where things go from here? I'm always interested in staying a step ahead of things, so if now is the time to board up windows and initiate Def Con 1 protocols, please share.
              If it is all beautiful you can’t believe it. Things aren’t that way.

              -Ernest Hemingway

              Comment


              • Ratatatat
                Ratatatat commented
                Editing a comment
                If Pence and the cabinet invoke the 25th Amendment, as currently being discussed, how would MAGA nation respond?

              • scotty_appleton814
                scotty_appleton814 commented
                Editing a comment
                I can't say that I trust them to act reasonably and staying legal.

            • Consider, as a cop, you have someone who repeatedly tries to report a murder on 11/7/2020. The first 60 times he came forward you checked it out, the supposed victim is still alive, no evidence of any crime. The other dude is still hanging outside the station yelling about a murder and asking why the cops won't do anything about it. A crowd gathers and demands an investigation. Meanwhile, the supposed murder victim is now sitting inside the department lobby.

              Now, by your logic we should investigate because so many people believe that a crime took place. But that's not the standard. We need actual evidence, actual predication. The department's job at that point is to educate the public, give them the truth so they can stop listening to the nut job on the street corner.
              That analogy is so absolutely off-base, preposterous and not at ALL analogous to what is going on here. There is literally a ton of evidence and none of it has been addressed by Congress. Don't take my word for it, here is a staggering 1400 pages of evidence:

              https://got-freedom.org/wp-content/u...68-pages-1.pdf


              Now, you may not LIKE the evidence, you may want to IGNORE the evidence, you might even be able to find some issues with the evidence, but that is no way close to having NO evidence. Again, you can come up with all the half-baked, not-really-applicable analogies you want, but roughly half the country (actually slightly more) believes there is a problem. That's not going to go away because the same people who lied to us about Trump and "Russian Collusion" are telling us to trust them. Only a complete fool would think that would be enough.


              Be dangerous, and unpredictable... and make a lot of noise. - John Bush, Anthrax

              Comment


              • DM206
                DM206 commented
                Editing a comment
                And what did the judges say when the evidence was presented in court? What did the Attorney General say? The election officials in each of these states?

                I guess they just didn't "like" the "evidence" either.

                How about the president's lawyers? What did they say in court about all this?

                I think you may be the one who is being willfully ignorant, here...

            • Now, you may not LIKE the evidence, you may want to IGNORE the evidence, you might even be able to find some issues with the evidence, but that is no way close to having NO evidence. Again, you can come up with all the half-baked, not-really-applicable analogies you want, but roughly half the country (actually slightly more) believes there is a problem. That's not going to go away because the same people who lied to us about Trump and "Russian Collusion" are telling us to trust them. Only a complete fool would think that would be enough.
              This is a serious question that just doesn't compute in my mind: If there is such overwhelming evidence then why have Trump appointed judges dismissed it? Why has every single judge dismissed it? Nobody has answered this question. It seems like if there were so much evidence, then they could present some of it in a court, right?

              Comment


              • BNWS
                BNWS commented
                Editing a comment
                I read an article a while back that some of the supreme court justices regret taking the Bush/ Gore case. Justice O'Conner later felt that they should have turned it down. 2 justices from that case are still there. Easier for them to just not hear the case. This is not the original article that I read but it gives you some info.

                https://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com...s-bush-v-gore/

            • Originally posted by retired137 View Post

              Two news sources that have been vetted as unbiased.
              The old Argumentum ad hominem fallacy: Don't attack the claim, attack the source. It requires no proof that the source is incorrect, just the claim that it is. Not a valid argument. Here is the source of the data, regardless:

              https://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...ncede_to_biden


              On another note there was a poster that followed certain groups and predicted this in a now closed thread. How was he able to foresee this?
              Because human nature doesn't really change.
              Be dangerous, and unpredictable... and make a lot of noise. - John Bush, Anthrax

              Comment


              • Originally posted by iconoclaste View Post

                This is a serious question that just doesn't compute in my mind: If there is such overwhelming evidence then why have Trump appointed judges dismissed it? Why has every single judge dismissed it? Nobody has answered this question. It seems like if there were so much evidence, then they could present some of it in a court, right?
                That's a great question. Judges refusing to look at evidence isn't proof that the evidence isn't valid, though. Most of the cases that got thrown out were thrown out for standing, not the merits (or lack thereof) of the evidence. Certainly the way these claims has been handled has clearly NOT inspired confidence in people and, let's be fair, the vast majority of Democrats wouldn't likely care even if they were 100% convinced that the election had serious issues, because it worked out in their favor. Trump was not popular with a lot of politicos and judges alike. It's not a stretch to imagine that if there were a concerted effort to sway the election to a preferred outcome, judges might be in on it. Certainly history is replete with all manner of horrible government conspiracies and actions... see also: Operation Northwoods, Tuskeegee Experiment, MKULTRA, the Gulf of Tonkin... as I said in response to a post above, human nature does not change... this especially includes the nature of people who hold power over others. Not saying that's the truth, but there is so little trust in our institutions and media (rightfully so) that the mere act of refusing to consider a case isn't going to convince people that there is no evidence that there IS a case. Just not how it works. Clearly.
                Be dangerous, and unpredictable... and make a lot of noise. - John Bush, Anthrax

                Comment


                • scotty_appleton814
                  scotty_appleton814 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  And which of those government actions consisted of millions of people in an organized effort?

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