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  • Originally posted by Bing_Oh View Post

    So, I answered your question and, because it wasn't what you wanted or thought the answer would be, you respond with "but you really don't know." Not much of a response.



    Because humans are naturally more comfortable around those who look, sound, act, and have similar beliefs as they do. And, as I mentioned above, because we have an unhealthy obsession with race in this country.
    Your previous response is pretty common, people brought themselves up by the bootstraps etc. Your second response had something to do with your success also, I'm glad you're able to recognize that.
    Last edited by retired137; 01-16-2021, 09:43 PM.

    Comment


    • Good Morning everyone,

      While I was asleep and at work overnight there were several interesting developments that occurred on this thread. In no particular order I will share some of my thoughts. This is going to long post so if you are down to take the ride, buckle up. If not feel free and skip past it.

      A) To the person that said MLK was a Republican, please listen to this. MLK was quoted many times saying things along the lines of not belonging to one political party. That way he can be critical of both of them but not beholden to either. NO one has really been able to narrow down what his party affiliation was. Given he was on the side of progress and trying to change the status quo, in the 1950s that would have surely been the Republican party, but as politics would have evolved into the 1960s his views would have more closely aligned with the Democratic Party. He has been quoted as saying favorable things in the 1950s about Nixon, but that changed in the 1960s when he had good things to say about JFK. Granted, if I remember history lesson correctly, didn't JFK help spring him out of jail once on a BS charge? However, I believe that any reasonable person would never in their right mind believe that MLK would give a lot of support to the GOP party of today especially since they conduct voter suppression.

      1) I try to keep my political comments centered on the side of the spectrum as opposed to the actual party. Of course there times I call out particular parties. I am a center left leaning liberal. Today that means I have more in common with democrats as opposed to being in 1862 when that would mean that I had more common with republicans. Even with that being said, there are conservative causes I support. I support limited government and the 2nd Amendment. I have a safes full of guns and ammunition at home. I however do not believe that enacting reasonable measures on gun control means I'm anti-2A. I find it difficult for people to say that they believe in limited government but they write a blank check to the military and do not make businesses pay their fair share of taxes. I don't want to hear about the fantasy known as trickle down economics.

      2) I am no expert on race relations. I happen to be a black man who has lived a black man's life here in America and have made many observations along the way. Since some of you have recently become expert political scientists and sociologists I'll share some of those impressions and observations. I do not speak for all black people, which is a very common trope anytime a black (or POC) tries to speak on this topic. America is having issues right not at the intersection of race and class because America truly has never come to terms and actually done anything to heal the pain of the horrors that slavery inflicted on black people brought here from Africa. When slavery was ended, everyone was compensated for the lost of value for their property (former slaves) and there was no compensation given to the former slaves themselves. Now Gen. Sherman tried with the 40 acres and mule Special Order, but President Andrew Jackson wasn't having it and rescinded that order. However, Reconstruction and Jim Crow ensued. And during this time, whenever black people gained any kind of good economic and political footing, it was more than likely taken away from them. Tulsa and Rosewood and Chicago. Before Jan 6th, the last time there was coup in the US was in Wilmington, NC, where white supremacists overthrew the democratically elected biracial government through violent and deadly means. Poll taxes, redlining, underfunded school districts, the list goes on and on and on and on with things and circumstances that black people had to deal with that put us at a purposeful disadvantage. I know there are people on this forum that had some relatives fight in WW2. Those veterans were probably able to gain a higher net worth because they were able to use their GI bill to buy that fancy new house in the newly developed suburbs. Homeowners tend to have a higher net worth than nonhomeowners. Guess who couldn't use their GI bill to buy a home in these new suburbs and were more likely unable to gain homeownership? The same black veterans who answered that same call to service. I have a WW2 relative who couldn't a home with his GI bill until the late 70s, and when he did, he couldn't get approved for a loan in "good neighborhoods" because of redlining. And if you do not believe that redlining still goes on today, go take a look in any gentrified neighborhood and look at who are buying the homes. Hint it ain't the locals. Since America's inception, there has been statutory, institutionalized, and organizational racism and prejudice towards black people.

      3) Part of the reason that there is such friction with police and the black community and trust issues is because for hundreds of years, the police were either in on the action, or doing the bidding of racist white people or just had a willful ignorance to the plight of black people. It was not that long ago people. There are people alive right now, who saw lynchings happen, (some with police present). My own city had to remove a mural a year or 2 ago that was literally a crowd looking a lynching, without the lynching being displayed. And those older black people are still telling those stories to family members who will listen, me included. So as police officers, we don't have the option to say, "oh that happened so long ago" or "or it wasn't me". What we an do is start to treat people reasonable and equality and just show a bit of compassion. A majority of people just want a fair shake.

      4) Black people have only been granted full citizenship and rights over the past 50 years. Even though the laws changed, that still didn't stop banks, and businesses, and schools, and other organizations from finding ways to discriminate. In Alabama, and black woman can be fired from her job for wearing her hair naturally. The employer will say it's disruptive and unprofessional and win in state court all day. Unless in the last 2 years, Alabama changed that law. Tell me, when have white women had to worry about their natural hair? The Army literally had to change it's regulations because it literally outlawed those natural hairstyles.

      5) America still has a lot of work to do. Everyone else got reparations of some kind if they were duly wronged by the government or it's policies, but not black people.

      6)This post can go on forever if I so choose. Some of you may like to think that things are equal, and that this stuff happened so long ago, but it has not. And it still has a effect here in present day America.

      Comment


      • DM206
        DM206 commented
        Editing a comment
        The people who need to hear all this won't listen, but thank you for taking the time and effort to put it out there anyway.

    • For my next thing. I, like many of you, believe I am darn good police. I have spent my entire adult life working in the law enforcement field. This is the family business as my father, grandfather, and uncle we all police officers. I love my job and I do believe it's honorable profession. It's just not a perfect profession, and that's alright. But now is the time that we should be meeting with our local stakeholders and ask them what they want from the their law enforcement and more importantly, ask them what are they willing fund. Face it, these are trying times, no doubt about it. No one likes to hear that word "reform" but it's coming whether we like it or not. Who here thought what Minneapolis did with with their PD was a good idea? Not me. I'd rather be at the table with the stakeholder's addressing their concerns, talking to the politicians, talking to citizens. If you know the winds of change are coming, you may as well try to be on the right side of it and make it as less painful as possible. It's sucks but I'd rather have the conversation with those people and at least get a couple of the concerns for my brothers and sisters addressed than to not be at the table at all and complain about the result.

      In IL, the General Assembly just passed a new sweeping "reform" bill. The first draft had things that were absolutely dead on arrival for most cops. However the amendments that were made as it went through the chambers removed most of those concerns and the governor has stated he wanted to see other changes too before he signed. I routinely talk to my council people and state legislators namely because I am the VP of the union. Some of those conversations I have at least helped in some way. Just think about it this way. We are all problem solvers and get stuff done type of people. Why complain when you can at least do something. I am not advocating for getting rid of prisons and probation for everyone. Not by a long shot. But we can at least to control SOME of the narrative.

      Comment


      • And lastly.


        This whole Blue Lives Matter movement or whatever you want to call it is complete BS. You wear a uniform, and you wear it by choice. No one is forcing you to. You can't change your skin color or national origin or things like that. If you are white, you're white all day. Black all day. Mexican all day. Asian all day. I can't change being black. But I can easily change being blue. This is a job, maybe even a big part of who you are. But you are not blue exclusively. I take my uniform and badge off and I have been given tons of grief by other cops UNTIL THEY FIND OUT IMA A COP!!!

        Blue Lives Matter was just a way to take attention away from the BLM movement and such. Besides, those dead and injured cops at the Capitol during the Insurrection of '21 really showed front and center that Blue Lives Matter was just a talking point.

        Every time marginalized groups try to call attention their marginalization there is always someone trying to take the spotlight away because they feel like it takes away from their shine. It doesn't.

        Comment


        • Pogue Mahone
          Pogue Mahone commented
          Editing a comment
          The GOP has always prided itself as being:

          1) American patriots
          2) Pro-Life
          3) Pro-LE
          4) Protectors of the American flag

          On January 6th we learned what a lie this is when they:

          1) Violently stormed the American capitol
          2) Beat to death
          3) An LE officer
          4) With Old Glory

          The GOP fully exposed themselves that day!

      • See you all when I wake up in a few hours.

        Comment


        • I feel that these Bing_Oh comments are worthy of being quoted:

          There are plenty of different factors that make a difference in an individual's circumstances. Wealth, education (or educational opportunity), geography, socio-economic factors, sex, race, religion, ethnic origin, family structure, and pure dumb luck (among about a billion other things) all make a difference in people's lives. Yet, we're endlessly obsessed with race in this country.

          Our obsession with race has become a self-fulfilling prophecy. If a minority is arrested and convicted, it's because of racial bias. If a caucasian is successful it's because they had a racial advantage. Yet, I've seen plenty of minorities who are successful, productive members of society...and just as many caucasians who are best described as human cockroaches, committing crimes, draining from society, and contributing nothing but chaos. Even a freshman sociology or psychology major will tell you that there's much more to behavior than a single factor like race.

          Our obsession with race is preventing us from moving past it. Every time we group people according to race (good or bad), we just take another step down the road of racial discord. Maybe it's time we stop looking at people according to something as insignificant as the melanin level of their skin and judge them according to their abilities and actions.
          I see minorities in both photos...and not a lynch rope in sight. Perhaps you should consider whether the lack of minorities in conservative circles is an effect of some kind of inherent racism or because some minority communities are trapped in generational thinking.

          Let me give you an example of generational thinking...I regularly deal with people who are multi-generational welfare recipients (just for the record, almost all of them are white, so it's not racial). They aren't on welfare because they're stupid, or because welfare benefits them and makes their lives better, but because that's what they were taught from a young age. They're trapped in a cycle that doesn't benefit them and won't benefit their children all because they were told that's what they should do.

          Now, apply that same thinking to race. Let's say a minority child is told, over and over, that everyone is against them because of the color of their skin. Every bad thing that happens to them is because of the color of their skin. When they make a bad decision and get punished, it's not because of the bad decision, it's because of their skin. They aren't good enough or smart enough to get an academic scholarship on their own, but they can get one because of the color of their skin. They can't get accepted into a college unless it's a "historically minority college" or it's to fill racial quotas. They can't get a job except for affirmative action. And, they can't make it on their own without the help of liberal government programs. So, this kid (who might be the next Einstein), thinks everything is about their race because that's what they were taught...the self-fulfilling prophecy of race in America.
          There's a lot of wisdom in there...
          Last edited by Aidokea; 01-17-2021, 09:18 AM.

          Comment


          • ...and a quote from DM206:

            Yes there are individuals of any race who you can point to as either successful or not. But that doesn't change the statistical differences between groups.
            There's that "group" thing again. Why do you see people as groups instead of individuals?

            Pick any metric of success or failure. Home ownership, education, net worth, criminal records, poverty, any metric you want. Now look at that metric broken down by race.
            If you're going to divide people into groups, why do you choose to divide them by apparent skin color, instead of by age, gender, or zip code? Sounds pretty racist to me.

            And ask yourself why you see what you see. You can turn a blind eye to the racial disparity but that won't make it go away.
            Nobody is turning a blind eye to "racial disparity"- if you must divide people into groups based upon their apparent skin color, we see that the #1 killer of young black men, is young black men. Whose fault do you think that is?

            Why are black people suffering worse in the current economy? Why are they suffering worse health outcomes in the pandemic? And yes, why are they more likely to be arrested at some point in their lifetime, less likely to be CEO's, less represented in government. Pick a metric and try to explain it.
            A large portion of it is probably racism- just not the kind of racism that you want to see. And racism is taught. It is taught mostly by parents. If black parents choose to live in communities occupied only by people with the same skin color as themselves, dress their children like gangsters, blame their personal failures on white people and the police, and teach their children to be obnoxious towards white people and the police, then those children are going to "suffer", as you say, from the crippling effects of that poor parenting. The rest of the world isn't going to put up with that kind of racism.

            I'm not suggesting these outcomes are the result of individual racist behavior. But they are a reflection of our history. You can't look at slavery, Jim Crow, segregation, redlining, lynching, racial gerrymandering, and then just pretend that hey we're all better now. We have serious racial issues in this country and pretending otherwise is just willful ignorance.
            Slavery, Jim Crow, segregation, lynching, and all that other stuff, are exclusively Democrat things. Voting for the Democrat party that brought you all of those things, is willful ignorance.

            I'm also not suggesting that race is the only factor that matters but it is important and it somehow became the subject of this thread. All other things being equal, minorities do not have the same advantages as white people in this country, and that goes double for white men. As individuals, we need to be accountable for our own actions and work hard to overcome any obstacles. But as a country we need to reckon with structures that have disproportionate impacts on specific groups. If we can measure it, we can't ignore it.
            You are blinded by your own racism.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by DM206
              But they are a reflection of our history. You can't look at slavery, Jim Crow, segregation, redlining, lynching, racial gerrymandering
              Originally posted by Aidokea View Post
              Slavery, Jim Crow, segregation, lynching, and all that other stuff, are exclusively Democrat things. Voting for the Democrat party that brought you all of those things, is willful ignorance.
              So you're saying that Democrats gerrymandered congressional districts in Texas to make this district for Dan Crenshaw?



              Try again!
              This Space For Rent

              Comment


              • Bing_Oh
                Bing_Oh commented
                Editing a comment
                https://thefulcrum.us/worst-gerryman...ample/7-austin

                Just like the Democrats have used it to gerrymander "minority districts" into existence. Let's stop playing the game that a politician of either party is out for anything but themselves and their own power and gain, please. The Democrats aren't out the save the world any more than the Republicans are out to destroy it...they're all interested in power and money.

              • DM206
                DM206 commented
                Editing a comment
                Did you mean to link to Austin? Because that city is actually broken up to avoid liberal representation. The examples from Maryland (by Dems) are egregious.

              • Bing_Oh
                Bing_Oh commented
                Editing a comment
                Quite frankly, Pogue, I could give a rattus norvegicus' rectum about Aidokea's statement...I'm not him and he's not me. He's a big boy and can defend himself if he wishes. I won't be drawn into the political childishness that several people ON BOTH SIDES have involved themselves in within this thread.

              • Levithane
                Levithane commented
                Editing a comment
                "The Democrats aren't out the save the world any more than the Republicans are out to destroy it...they're all interested in power and money."

                This. I don't know why you guys keep arguing over parties. Pay attention to the things they both support and regularly vote on that don't help the country.

            • Originally posted by scotty_appleton814 View Post
              This whole Blue Lives Matter movement or whatever you want to call it is complete BS...
              Yes, we're pretty clear on where you stand with regards to your brothers and sisters in blue.

              I have been given tons of grief by other cops...
              This is not surprising either, with your mouth. You could get yourself in trouble if you were plaid.

              Blue Lives Matter was just a way to take attention away from the BLM movement and such.
              So make up your mind- do you want to loot a sneaker store, or arrest those who do?

              Every time marginalized groups try to call attention their marginalization there is always someone trying to take the spotlight away because they feel like it takes away from their shine. It doesn't.
              How's that assumed third-party victimhood working out for you? Can you deposit it into your checking account?

              Comment


              • Can't we all just get along?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Aidokea View Post
                  Can't we all just get along?
                  There is nothing conciliatory about you.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Aidokea View Post

                    Yes, we're pretty clear on where you stand with regards to your brothers and sisters in blue.



                    This is not surprising either, with your mouth. You could get yourself in trouble if you were plaid.



                    So make up your mind- do you want to loot a sneaker store, or arrest those who do?



                    How's that assumed third-party victimhood working out for you? Can you deposit it into your checking account?
                    Just because I think we should be held to higher standard does not mean I don't have the backs of my fellow officers. I've made quite the reputation in my area for being the guy that if you was trouble, you want me answering the all-call. When I was voted in as Union VP it was because my coworkers had seen that I was an independent thinker who enjoyed improving labor conditions that at 2 years on the force I was voted in. So your particular opinion shared by your other half has a much weight as a grain of sand.

                    I have to say that you are very good at giving nonanswers and deflecting when it comes to questions you don't answer that are either very sticky or just don't move your agenda forward. That may work on some folks but this field is full of people who bu!!**** and detect bu!!**** for a living. And we have figured you out. In the past I have stated that I care less for whatever small amount of money that Walmart or other big box stores may lose over looting because it's insured anyways. I don't want anyone hurt. But doesn't mean that those ppl shouldn't be prosecuted if found. They should. But let's not act like you're trying to compare BLM protests to the Insurrection of '21, they don't compare and by going that far you are proving my point for me with minimal effort on my part.

                    You're a "recent addition to the minority" why don't you tell me how it's working out? Speaking of, I'm not sure if you answered but what does that mean you been a minority for 15 years or whatever?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by scotty_appleton814 View Post

                      There is nothing conciliatory about you.
                      Lol, I think that one went right over his head. A lot of us worked it, but he may not even have been born yet when it happened...

                      Comment


                      • Instead of being black against white, we should all be blue.

                        I would lay down my life in the blink of an eye to protect my brothers and sisters in blue, regardless of the apparent skin color of anyone involved...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Aidokea View Post
                          Instead of being black against white, we should all be blue.

                          I would lay down my life in the blink of an eye to protect my brothers and sisters in blue, regardless of the apparent skin color of anyone involved...
                          That's just it. No one said you wouldn't. No one has made light that you were a horrible cop. I don't have any reason to think you were anything but a decent cop. Sure someone here says you belong to that 70s TV show with the man wife and 6 kids in an blended family. You, however, have questioned other folks devotion to the job based on views you don't agree with.

                          Is this you accepting the olive branch I extended on the CW2 thread? I can let bygones be bygones and still debate you all day and my feelings won't be hurt.. I don't care that you disagree. A big part of my issue with you is what I perceive to be a lack of empathy you display for those you don't agree with.

                          Comment

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