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  • Originally posted by scotty_appleton814 View Post

    Those people should have totally been charged appropriately with like arson or whatever crime fit the bill. But no, burning down a courthouse does compare with literally trying to interrupt and cause action to be taken on your behalf because you used or threaten violence against Congress. At the Capitol, the seat of American Government.

    Now those fools who took over that area of in Seattle and called is SH!+ or something, they are the closest to treason that happened this year as they were trying to displace and replace a unit of government that originated with the Constitution. They should have been charged with that no doubt.
    Now support your argument.

    You have said that interrupting or attempting to cause action to be taken on your behalf through violence (as happened at the Capitol) is insurrection. The Judiciary is one of the three branches of Federal Government (just as the Legislature...ie, Congress...is), separate but equal to the other two branches of government. So, by your above definition, aren't rioters who attacked and tried to burn down Federal courthouses (a violent attack on the Judiciary with the intent to interrupt or cause action to be taken upon their behalf) insurrectionists?

    Again, it's time to put your biases aside and look at things from a logical perspective. If you're unable to do this, then your arguments are nothing but biased personal opinions.
    "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
    -Friedrich Nietzsche

    Comment


    • DM206
      DM206 commented
      Editing a comment
      I'm trying to make a nuanced argument here. Even if disrupting the court was part of the point, that doesn't meet the definition of insurrection. I think it's a very long way off. How does shutting down one courthouse seek to shut down or overthrow the government as a whole? We have to be able to distinguish between levels of seriousness here. Facts and nuance matter.

      The attack on the Capitol didn't just interrupt any regular session of the legislature. It was targeted at disrupting the certification of the election and installing their preferred candidate as ruler of the federal government. That's a very different thing from shutting down any single federal office. If you can't see the difference then maybe you don't want to.

      And mind you, I'm not arguing that damaging a federal courthouse is ok...just that it doesn't rise to the level of insurrection (or even terrorism, depending on the methods used...see my previous comments on this thread about that).

    • Bing_Oh
      Bing_Oh commented
      Editing a comment
      Actually, DM206, I wonder why you are so insistent on differentiating the violent actions of one group over another...especially considering that both groups in question were obviously attempting to subvert the government through violence.

      For the last nine months, you have leftists who have been doing their best to undermine law enforcement through violence (arguably, subverting the Executive Branch). At the same time, they're targeting courthouses (attacking the Judicial Branch). And, yet, their actions have been referred to as "protests." Yet, when those on the right subvert the Legislative Branch, those same people people bandy around terms like "insurrection" and "treason."

      It's unacceptable that people accept violent action in the furtherance of their political and/or ideological belief from one side, but condemn it from another.

    • DM206
      DM206 commented
      Editing a comment
      I pretty clearly condemned violence and criminality on both sides. But that doesn't mean we can't distinguish between different types of crime or different degrees of seriousness. Just as there is a difference between assault, manslaughter, premeditated homicide, and political assassination. They're all violent, and they're all bad. They're not all the same.

    • Bing_Oh
      Bing_Oh commented
      Editing a comment
      My point is, if "trying to interrupt and cause action to be taken on your behalf because you used or threaten violence against [a branch of government]" (as Scotty said) amounts to insurrection, then it should apply to BOTH the actors at the Capitol Building and those at Federal courthouses in recent months. In general terms, their actions and intentions were no different...they sought to unlawfully and with violence undermine the integrity of the duly-elected or appointed members of the government so as to further their own political and/or ideological beliefs.

  • Originally posted by retired137 View Post

    What say you regarding LEO that were part of the anarchists? This will come out in the investigation. Part of the "Trojan Horse?"
    It depends, what was the reason they were there? Not all cops, you being a great example, are supporters of Trump or the right. So what was the off duty LEOs ideology? Were they there to support Trump or were they there marching for the left in an infiltrating manner?

    And you are right, this all will come out in the investigation. Assuming the LEO was a Trump supporter, bad decision on his/her part. Or if he/she was on the left, bad decision as well. Both fell for the con and drank the kool aid.

    Bottom line, you and I, are not enemies against each other. Stop being swayed by the rhetoric, see through the BS and look for the end goal of all this. Ultimately, it is to pit each other against one another so we aren't a united front when the true enemy arrives.

    Comment


    • retired137
      retired137 commented
      Editing a comment
      I mistakenly cast a vote for Trump. He is the enemy.

  • Now that a couple of days have passed, some thoughts....

    1. I'm surprised how easy it was to bust out windows and breech doors at the US Capitol. Clearly they need to harden up that building to a standard higher than your typical church or high school. I mean, look what happened with just sticks and rocks. Good God what if it was a terrorist cell with real tools and devices.

    2. I've been reading how this was a massive 'intelligence failure' on behalf of a bunch of three letter agencies. I call BS on that. For weeks I saw signs on multiple open sources that hotheads were planning to get froggy in DC on Jan 6 and I'm just a private citizen with too much spare time. There are hordes of intel analysts paid to scour social media and the dark web for threats and if I saw the red flags, I'm sure they did as well. This was a failure to act on intelligence, plain and simple.

    3. I don't know much about the USCP, other than they are somewhat unique as an agency of the Legislative branch and not the Executive branch. And because they fly under the radar, there's less oversight and accountability.

    What I do know, from firsthand experience, is the toxic combination of minimal accountability, institutional arrogance, and failure of leadership manifests itself parallel to what occurred this week. Intel is dismissed, prior preparation is poor, management assigns unrealistic assignments with the belief things will magically collapse into place in the end, and no one is held accountable for obvious lapses in judgement. I did read that the chief of USCP has been canned, which is a breath of fresh air, because soooo often it's the rank and file who get squashed while the G protects and coddles grossly unfit managers. They never seem to learn from their mistakes, no matter how often repeated, as long as their little power structure remains intact.

    4. This ain't over and won't be over anytime soon. Buckle up for a bumpy ride.
    Last edited by Ratatatat; 01-10-2021, 12:58 PM.
    If it is all beautiful you can’t believe it. Things aren’t that way.

    -Ernest Hemingway

    Comment


    • On the civil war theme.

      Someone/some foreign power/something nefarious wants a civil war in this country. With COVID lockdowns, civil unrest, the right versus left rhetoric, the endless printing of money and debt and votes potentially being manipulated, you got the perfect spark that lights the proverbial bomb fire.

      On the right versus left theme.

      Look at it in a LE way. Just like any domestic violence situation we go to. Any cop worth their salt knows that you first separate the spouses. You first get one spouses biased side of the story and after, you get the other spouses biased side of the story. Once both biased stories are heard you find the truth somewhere in the middle.

      On the COVID lockdown theme.

      Heard from a doctor the other day that no one near last flu season has come down with the flu. Their stores of flu meds are stocked high, however the years prior, flu meds were flying off the shelves. Did some research on it and found a lot of information out there about how the flu numbers are no where near what they always are in years prior. Interesting information too, about how the actual COVID death cases have been manipulated. Why? Is there truly a good reason to lock down an economy, or is there another agenda all together?

      Flu numbers see sharp decrease in 2020-21 season (ktiv.com)

      On the endless printing of money and the rising national debt theme.

      Yea a stimulus for the population being forced to not go to work is a nice idea, but the amount of pork put into those two bills is staggering. What is the real reason to put us so far into debt we will never have a chance to get ourselves out? Could it be to devalue our currency? One way to destroy a country without out and out combat is to destroy its economy. Put COVID in there and add a little currency devaluation and debt, you got a perfect recipe for economic collapse.

      You may argue, hey the stock market is soaring so how about that. What do you expect the stock market to do when you flood the economy with an endless amount of printed money. People will put their printed money into the stock market. Its a house of cards.

      Votes being manipulated theme.

      If the people believe their vote no longer matters, they no longer believe they have a voice in this representative government. If true, we are now a people ruled by a few with only a figure head at the helm, they call that an oligarchy.

      Civil unrest theme.

      Anger the populace and make them hate each other, that way they will go to war against themselves and kill off half the population when it is all over. Force the populace to believe law and order has been erased, which creates the belief that anarchy is the law of the land.

      Prepare people, prepare to protect your family and prepare to protect the ideals of this country.

      Comment


      • This video is purported to show the death of Officer Sicknick. I don't kmow if that's true. I've seen conflicting reports. Some are saying this was DC Metro police and he survived.

        Any circular logic implying the capitol siege was peaceful has been thoroughly debunked by subsequent video evidence in the past 24 hours. This was a violent and deadly attempt to overthrow the certification of our electoral process.

        https://twitter.com/RepRiggleman/sta...618035203?s=20
        Last edited by iconoclaste; 01-10-2021, 03:08 PM.

        Comment


        • A USCP officer assigned to the Senate Division is reported to have died by suicide. RIP.



          https://www.uscp.gov/media-center/pr...ard-liebengood

          Off-duty Death of USCP Officer Howard Liebengood

          January 10, 2021
          Press Release

          The United States Capitol Police is deeply saddened by the off-duty death on January 9, 2021, of Officer Howard Liebengood, age 51. He was assigned to the Senate Division, and has been with the Department since April 2005. Our thoughts and prayers go out to his family, friends, and colleagues.

          We ask that his family, and other USCP officers’ and their families’ privacy be respected during this profoundly difficult time.

          Comment


          • WTF? Was he Epsteined?
            Now go home and get your shine box!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by SOCAleo View Post
              On the civil war theme.

              Someone/some foreign power/something nefarious wants a civil war in this country. With COVID lockdowns, civil unrest, the right versus left rhetoric, the endless printing of money and debt and votes potentially being manipulated, you got the perfect spark that lights the proverbial bomb fire.

              On the right versus left theme.

              Look at it in a LE way. Just like any domestic violence situation we go to. Any cop worth their salt knows that you first separate the spouses. You first get one spouses biased side of the story and after, you get the other spouses biased side of the story. Once both biased stories are heard you find the truth somewhere in the middle.

              On the COVID lockdown theme.

              Heard from a doctor the other day that no one near last flu season has come down with the flu. Their stores of flu meds are stocked high, however the years prior, flu meds were flying off the shelves. Did some research on it and found a lot of information out there about how the flu numbers are no where near what they always are in years prior. Interesting information too, about how the actual COVID death cases have been manipulated. Why? Is there truly a good reason to lock down an economy, or is there another agenda all together?

              Flu numbers see sharp decrease in 2020-21 season (ktiv.com)

              On the endless printing of money and the rising national debt theme.

              Yea a stimulus for the population being forced to not go to work is a nice idea, but the amount of pork put into those two bills is staggering. What is the real reason to put us so far into debt we will never have a chance to get ourselves out? Could it be to devalue our currency? One way to destroy a country without out and out combat is to destroy its economy. Put COVID in there and add a little currency devaluation and debt, you got a perfect recipe for economic collapse.

              You may argue, hey the stock market is soaring so how about that. What do you expect the stock market to do when you flood the economy with an endless amount of printed money. People will put their printed money into the stock market. Its a house of cards.

              Votes being manipulated theme.

              If the people believe their vote no longer matters, they no longer believe they have a voice in this representative government. If true, we are now a people ruled by a few with only a figure head at the helm, they call that an oligarchy.

              Civil unrest theme.

              Anger the populace and make them hate each other, that way they will go to war against themselves and kill off half the population when it is all over. Force the populace to believe law and order has been erased, which creates the belief that anarchy is the law of the land.

              Prepare people, prepare to protect your family and prepare to protect the ideals of this country.
              This rests solely on the shoulders of Donald John Trump. He lit the fire and inflamed it with his rhetoric. Unfortunately, my vote was cast for Trump.

              Comment


              • I feel sorry for these Capitol cops. Caught in the middle of a political **** storm crated by 2 opposing sides who have no interest in serving the American people. Every one working that day will be called to the carpet and questioned on what they did or didn't do, what their political affiliation is, people will assume by their race that they were complicit. An answer either way will not satisfy one side or the other. Bosses will deny what they told guys to do or not do. Politicians, media blowhards and online anonymous experts who never leave their basement will twist their responses and actions or inactions in the most nefarious ways. A simple "like' on a social media site and they will be treated as if they were a guard at a concentration camp. They will be targeted, doxed and shunned. they and their families will suffer They will be the latest police agency to feel the wrath of a society that has come to blame the police for every political and social problem in the country. The shameful conduct of our political leaders is on full display this year and the lowly cop is catching all the s**t and none of these politicians will lose one wink of sleep over these 2 dead cops. Rest in peace Officers Sicknick and Liebengood.
                Last edited by BNWS; 01-10-2021, 08:23 PM.

                Comment


                • not.in.MY.town
                  not.in.MY.town commented
                  Editing a comment
                  This was the first suicide related to the Capitol riot...but I fear it won't be the last.

              • Ah...The Good Fascists are in Charge... Prepare for interrogations and illegal terminations.

                Now go home and get your shine box!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by CCCSD View Post
                  Ah...The Good Fascists are in Charge... Prepare for interrogations and illegal terminations.
                  Who are these facsist you speak of?

                  Comment


                  • He is correct, the fascists are in power. They will be removed
                    20 Jan 2021.
                    Last edited by retired137; 01-11-2021, 12:05 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by BNWS View Post
                      I feel sorry for these Capitol cops. Caught in the middle of a political **** storm crated by 2 opposing sides who have no interest in serving the American people. Every one working that day will be called to the carpet and questioned on what they did or didn't do, what their political affiliation is, people will assume by their race that they were complicit. An answer either way will not satisfy one side or the other. Bosses will deny what they told guys to do or not do. Politicians, media blowhards and online anonymous experts who never leave their basement will twist their responses and actions or inactions in the most nefarious ways. A simple "like' on a social media site and they will be treated as if they were a guard at a concentration camp. They will be targeted, doxed and shunned. they and their families will suffer They will be the latest police agency to feel the wrath of a society that has come to blame the police for every political and social problem in the country. The shameful conduct of our political leaders is on full display this year and the lowly cop is catching all the s**t and none of these politicians will lose one wink of sleep over these 2 dead cops. Rest in peace Officers Sicknick and Liebengood.
                      TRUMPS AMERICA. Everyone passing blame, no one taking responsibility. It's ironic that you state people will assume people are complicit based on race. Can you please define that statement?

                      He's made America great, in whose eyes?
                      Last edited by retired137; 01-11-2021, 09:27 AM.

                      Comment


                      • BNWS
                        BNWS commented
                        Editing a comment
                        To clarify, instead of people I should have said cops. My post was meant to defend individual cops who just came to work that day to stand a post. Not to defend an administration, organization or protesters. Investigations into incidents like these end up painting those present with a broad brush and effects the individual officers.

                        I don't believe I defended the protesters or Trump and I don't believe I said he made America great.
                        Just defending the lowly cop.
                        Last edited by BNWS; 01-11-2021, 12:08 PM.

                    • Law enforcement braces for more extremist violence in DC and around the US ahead of Inauguration Day - CNNPolitics

                      From the article:

                      At the Pentagon, officials are assessing whether there is a need to bolster the number of National Guard forces to as many as 13,000 guardsmen for President-elect Joe Biden's inauguration, according to a defense official with knowledge of the planning. Prior to the US Capitol breach, the estimated need called for approximately 7,000 guard troops.

                      At the state level, security officials have been working closely with federal partners as they prepare for increasing online chatter calling for protests in all 50 states, plus Washington, DC, said one state law enforcement official with direct knowledge of conversations between federal and state partners.

                      Plans for future armed protests, including a proposed secondary attack on the US Capitol and state capitol buildings on January 17, began proliferating on and off Twitter last week, the social media company said.
                      So DC is getting ready for January 17, evidently when Maga Nation will rage against the machine all across the country. Just curious how many of your departments are planning for six days from now--
                      If it is all beautiful you can’t believe it. Things aren’t that way.

                      -Ernest Hemingway

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Ratatatat View Post
                        Law enforcement braces for more extremist violence in DC and around the US ahead of Inauguration Day - CNNPolitics

                        From the article:



                        So DC is getting ready for January 17, evidently when Maga Nation will rage against the machine all across the country. Just curious how many of your departments are planning for six days from now--
                        CNN propaganda! Business as usual where I'm located and I'm not worried about the Trump supporters.

                        Comment

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