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  • It might be helpful to know how the ROE might have been different for CPD compared to the average agency.

    It would be perfectly understandable if lethal force was justified for someone illegally entering the Capitol.
    This Space For Rent

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    • Originally posted by not.in.MY.town View Post

      Absolutely correct. Nor does the short video clip prove that it was NOT justified.
      Tell me, specifically what parts of the deadly force triangle of Opportunity, Ability and Jeopardy did YOU see displayed at the moment she was shot? You certainly didn't see all the required three. What possible articulation could you even invent to try and justify it? She wasn't physically fighting anyone, she clearly had no weapon at all. She was probably 120 lbs soaking wet with boots on. What possible legal justification could exist for shooting that particular woman at that particular moment? Because she was coming through a door unarmed into the presence of four armed cops? Answer honestly, with what you saw in the video, would YOU have shot her?

      We, as LEOs, don't typically rush to judgment in an OIS. WHY is this case so different?
      As an LEO I use my 25 years of experience and education on such matters to make a determination based on knowledge of the law and tactical considerations. It usually doesn't take long to form an educated opinion, for any of us. We all know what we know, and how we arrive at our decisions. I usually "rush" to the judgment that a shooting is justified or at least has the potential to be so, because the vast majority of them are. But, I go where the facts lead me. But this is an atypical case, as anybody could agree. Sometimes you just gotta call it like is. Some things are so obviously egregious on their face that there is no excuse for them, see also Daniel Shaver and Justine Diamond. I believe this case to be an unjustified shooting, just as those clearly were. Thus far, the very best defense that anybody here can come up with for it is to say that it might be justified, but nobody is willing or able to specifically articulate why it was necessary, or to really put their money where their mouth is and to commit to the stance that they'd have done the same.

      This is somewhat of a rhetorical question since it's easy to read between the lines of your posts...but feel free to enlighten me.
      If you truly believe this particular shooting is justified, then there is no way in the world that I (or anyone) would be capable of enlightening you, even if I cared to try, which I don't. There is no GD reason in the universe that a grown adult man with a gun and body armor, backed up by three other men with guns and body armor, needed to shoot an unarmed 20-something female in her neck to resolve the issue at hand. That video was one of the worst things I've ever seen in my life, and that's saying something.
      Last edited by Georgetime; 01-08-2021, 10:41 AM.
      Be dangerous, and unpredictable... and make a lot of noise. - John Bush, Anthrax

      Comment


      • not.in.MY.town
        not.in.MY.town commented
        Editing a comment
        Nice strawman argument. I did not say that I believed it was justified. I stated that I could not make a determination one way or another based on the short video alone. No more, no less.

        And if this video truly is "one of the worst things you've ever seen in your life", then I'd love to know where you spent your 25 years as a LEO....

      • Georgetime
        Georgetime commented
        Editing a comment
        "And if this video truly is "one of the worst things you've ever seen in your life", then I'd love to know where you spent your 25 years as a LEO...." Apparently not in the same chicken sh1t outfit that you spent however much time you have, where they hire people who can't look at prima facie evidence and formulate an educated determination about what they see. By all means, tell us all where YOUR town is, so we can give that backwater burg a WIIIIIDE berth.
        Last edited by Georgetime; 01-08-2021, 12:25 PM.

    • Originally posted by retired137 View Post

      She alone is responsible for her demise and put a lot of effort into her lifes defining moment.
      I think the guy that pulled the trigger has a lot more responsibility for her death than she does. She bears some, for sure, but all of it? Nah, not even close.
      Be dangerous, and unpredictable... and make a lot of noise. - John Bush, Anthrax

      Comment


      • A
        Originally posted by Georgetime View Post

        I think the guy that pulled the trigger has a lot more responsibility for her death than she does. She bears some, for sure, but all of it? Nah, not even close.
        I didn't realize that he booked her airfare, provided transportation to the riot, made the decision to scale the building and make unlawful entry.

        This event is a perfect example of the Swiss cheese model. Unfortunately they aligned perfectly, there was plenty of opportunity to realign the pieces of cheese. She must of thought they tasted pretty good.
        Last edited by retired137; 01-08-2021, 11:20 AM.

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        • Pelosi says she's discussed taking nuclear codes away from Trump with Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman (kshb.com)

          Dammit now they're taking away his nuke codes.

          I was kinda looking forward to living in my underground bunker for the next 18 months.
          Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome.

          -Isaac Asimov

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          • scotty_appleton814
            scotty_appleton814 commented
            Editing a comment
            I'm not even sure how that will work out legally or in practice.

        • Figure now is a better time than ever for this presentation. It's a quick and dirty explanation of the events of 19APR1775, though also fairly well detailed. We're seeing many parallels between the events leading up to that day, and events in our own lifetimes.

          They say that history doesn't repeat, but it often rhymes.
           

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          • Originally posted by Krinkiboi2020 View Post
            Figure now is a better time than ever for this presentation. It's a quick and dirty explanation of the events of 19APR1775, though also fairly well detailed. We're seeing many parallels between the events leading up to that day, and events in our own lifetimes.

            They say that history doesn't repeat, but it often rhymes.
            They also say that those who don't learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. Nobody's listening or learning and it's only been two days. The mistake is in thinking you can just blow off an entire half the country by mocking them, ridiculing them and calling them stupid and that what happened on 1/6 can't get any worse and can't be repeated. It can get much worse, and I believe it's most likely going to.
            Be dangerous, and unpredictable... and make a lot of noise. - John Bush, Anthrax

            Comment


            • Originally posted by retired137 View Post
              A

              I didn't realize that he booked her airfare, provided transportation to the riot, made the decision to scale the building and make unlawful entry.
              Yep, still not seeing any legal justification for her to be shot in the neck whilst unarmed in anything you just mentioned. Tennessee v. Garner still is the law of the land, even in the Capitol, even during a protest/riot. You're talking, but you're not saying anything worthwhile that carries any weight from a legal perspective.

              This event is a perfect example of the Swiss cheese model. Unfortunately they aligned perfectly, there was plenty of opportunity to realign the pieces of cheese. She must of thought they tasted pretty good.
              Unless those pieces of cheese being lined up equated to her possessing the requisite Opportunity, Ability and Jeopardy to inflict death or serious bodily injury on another, then no, this is not the perfect example of that. Not one person here has dared to try and specifically spell out a justification based on what the video shows or even a combination of what the video shows and some theory. The best we can get is a mealy-mouthed equivocation about how maybe somehow it's justified based on some ethereal reasoning... But nobody can muster any cogent argument on how that might even be remotely possible. Nobody has articulated how her actions rose to the level of requiring deadly force with the specificity the law requires. By all means, maybe I'm just not seeing it and there is something, I'm all ears. Hell, I WANT someone to convince me, I wish I could see it as less tragic or more reasonable, because as it stands it's tragic and sad and appears to be completely uncalled for. All someone has to do is answer the simple question: WHOSE life was the Capitol officer firing to protect from WHAT imminent danger? If that question cannot be answered, it's a bad shoot, regardless of whether or not a prosecutor elects not to pursue it.
              Be dangerous, and unpredictable... and make a lot of noise. - John Bush, Anthrax

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Georgetime View Post

                They also say that those who don't learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. Nobody's listening or learning and it's only been two days. The mistake is in thinking you can just blow off an entire half the country by mocking them, ridiculing them and calling them stupid and that what happened on 1/6 can't get any worse and can't be repeated. It can get much worse, and I believe it's most likely going to.
                06JAN wasn't Lexington and Concord, but Lexington and Concord is coming and it's coming fast. I'd say that the events at the Capitol are more akin to the Boston Massacre.

                At this point, I'm just watching, waiting and looking for a Trijicon TA44 for a decent price...
                Last edited by Krinkiboi2020; 01-08-2021, 01:38 PM.

                Comment


                • ^You two seem pretty fired up about Civil War 2.0 or the Boogaloo or whatever to call the impending unrest. Any predictions how it will manifest itself? Blue states vs Red states? General Ted Cruz leads Texit? Lib tard arrest squads? Neighbor vs neighbor until the enemy is vanquished?
                  Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome.

                  -Isaac Asimov

                  Comment


                  • How about we wait for the full investigation to come out, instead of jumping to conclusions like EVERYONE else does and we bitc about..?
                    Now go home and get your shine box!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by retired137 View Post

                      She alone is responsible for her demise and put a lot of effort into her lifes defining moment.
                      You're right, she alone was responsible for her final moments. I remember certain members saying the exact same thing about Brianna Taylor. So let's apply the same standard to her.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Georgetime View Post

                        I think the guy that pulled the trigger has a lot more responsibility for her death than she does. She bears some, for sure, but all of it? Nah, not even close.
                        That officer responded to the resistance and threat she posed. Now during the course of that joint investigation all the relevant facts and circumstances will come out. MOST of those facts we do not know yet.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by scotty_appleton814 View Post

                          You're right, she alone was responsible for her final moments. I remember certain members saying the exact same thing about Brianna Taylor. So let's apply the same standard to her.
                          Brianna Taylor was accidentally shot while standing next to her drug dealer boyfriend, in a dark apartment, while he was actively firing at police officers serving a warrant. She wasn't the intentional target of the shooting. Mrs. Babbitt was intentionally shot in broad daylight, in a lighted hallway, while clearly unarmed and not presenting any discernible threat of death or serious bodily injury. The two situations are not even remotely comparable and are, in fact, about as diametrically opposed as you can get.
                          Be dangerous, and unpredictable... and make a lot of noise. - John Bush, Anthrax

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Ratatatat View Post
                            ^You two seem pretty fired up about Civil War 2.0 or the Boogaloo or whatever to call the impending unrest. Any predictions how it will manifest itself? Blue states vs Red states? General Ted Cruz leads Texit? Lib tard arrest squads? Neighbor vs neighbor until the enemy is vanquished?
                            Well, having experienced the unrest as one might call it in Iraq and Afghanistan first-hand, and having buddies I served with pack up to go fight in Syria and Ukraine, I honestly don't know. I can say that it'll make all of those conflicts look like child's play.

                            I wouldn't say that I'm particularly fired up. I've just been watching the lead up to this conflict unfold, and trying to analyze it as best as a dumb grunt like me can.
                            Last edited by Krinkiboi2020; 01-08-2021, 02:09 PM.

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