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Policing in 2021: under a null and void Constitution

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  • Policing in 2021: under a null and void Constitution

    So let's pause and take note of where things stand. Covid-19 continues to spread like an Old Testament plague, unemployment is above 10% nationally, and the burning and looting in several big cities continues without any sign of abatement.

    And it's looking more and more like we are headed for a constitutional crisis. When Potus says the only way he loses is if the election is rigged, that's his way of letting everybody know he ain't leaving.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...tion-is-if-the

    Maybe he pulls off another underdog stunner and this will be a moot subject but I dunno... it's just not looking like magic is going to happen again. The 2016 margin of victory was razor thin in three states and those states seem to be in a different mood today.

    There's all sorts of predictions (from people much smarter than me) as how this will play out, if Biden wins. The prevailing consensus is Trump will refuse to acknowledge the election (unless he wins), and from there, we sail into uncharted waters.

    I've been reading as much as I can find on the subject. Everything from the blood fantasy rantings of Facebook lunatics to articles written by former generals who witnessed the Soviet Union break apart. There's even a website aggregator for this topic:

    https://www.anewcivilwar.com/

    Positions include:

    -Some believe the military command structure will not break, but the SSGT level and below could fracture.

    -Some believe the USSS director will walk into the Oval Office on January 20 at noon and personally escort Potus out the door. Or not.

    -Some believe the combination of stressors (pandemic, economy, racial strife, and tribal politics) will create a perfect storm that ends the American Experiment of 1776.

    -If the nation breaks into several sovereignties, it would reflect regional values. California, Oregon and Washington would become Pacifica, a progressive nation with free health care and free college and all the other freebies that Socialism brings until someone has to pay for them. Conversely, what was once Arkansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Missouri, and Texas becomes the constitutional monarchy of Trumponia, where lese majeste laws make it illegal to publicly diss, (even jokingly), the royal family.

    Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota would become a new Canadian province, if this all happens, btw.

    Question: how would your department operate if the US Constitution is rendered null and void in the next several months? For example, would previous exceptions to the 4th amendment still apply when there is no 4th amendment? Would a perp still be allowed to talk with an attorney if the 6th amendment is kaput? Would you consider leaving the profession if this were to happen?

    (I know this is similar to the Civil War 2.0 thread and don't care).
    What does not kill you will likely try again.

  • #2
    I'd point out, the Constitution HAS been null and void for several months in many states.

    Most if not all of the COVID restrictions enacted by state governments are unconstitutional, and have been called out by the USAG... but no federal action has been taken by the federal government against those states.

    The President not leaving office would only be the latest in a long chain of unconstitutional indignities this country has suffered, and possibly not the worst one.

    What DOES a sitting President do who believes laws were broken and an election stolen?
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I'm told and I win where I fight." -- GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

    "With a brother on my left and a sister on my right, we face…. We face what no one should face. We face, so no one else would face. We are in the face of Death." -- Holli Peet

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by tanksoldier View Post
      I'd point out, the Constitution HAS been null and void for several months in many states.

      Most if not all of the COVID restrictions enacted by state governments are unconstitutional, and have been called out by the USAG... but no federal action has been taken by the federal government against those states.

      The President not leaving office would only be the latest in a long chain of unconstitutional indignities this country has suffered, and possibly not the worst one.

      What DOES a sitting President do who believes laws were broken and an election stolen?
      I think Trump and Barr are in tough spots when it comes to telling the state governments what to do in response to COVID, like easing restrictions and stuff. They don't want to be seen as dictators, although many governors are more than happy to play that role.
      It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

      Comment


      • #4
        If the US fractures into various new nations, expect many of the current states to fracture as well. Most of NYS would never follow NYC. Expect much of NYS to align with Vermont. California would also be hard pressed to hold on to their more moderate counties. Maine and Michigan also hold promise to break up.

        Comment


        • Aidokea
          Aidokea commented
          Editing a comment
          Just like the old joke about how Austin is not part of Texas...

        • merlin436
          merlin436 commented
          Editing a comment
          First thing that pops into my mind upon reading of the "split" between Austin and Texas...

          "It don't matter who's in Austin, Bob Wills is still the King."

      • #5
        believe the USSS director will walk into the Oval Office on January 20 at noon and personally escort Potus out the door. Or not.
        MG Lawrence Chamberlain, of Gettysburg fame and at the time Adjutant General of Maine, became the military governor of Maine for two weeks when there was allegation of fraud in the race for governor and the election couldn’t be certified.

        He kept a lid on things until the Maine Supreme Court sorted out the election and declared a winner.

        GEN Milley would do well to read up on that incident.
        "I am a Soldier. I fight where I'm told and I win where I fight." -- GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

        "With a brother on my left and a sister on my right, we face…. We face what no one should face. We face, so no one else would face. We are in the face of Death." -- Holli Peet

        Comment


        • #6
          What if this happens? What if that happens? What about this? What about that? What will we ever do if ABC becomes XYZ?

          Personally, I think the majority of thinking Americans see exactly what is happening now and what has been happening over the past several years, and they will show up and vote accordingly. Then we will have to deal with the results, which may be more of the same or some other scheme of life in modern America.

          If Mr. Trump wins again there will be an uproar to end all uproars. What we have seen in the major cities in recent months will turn into a whirlwind of destruction that may very well threaten the future of our Republic, and many citizens may have to fight for their lives to survive.

          If Mr. Biden wins there will be little purpose to ever make reference to the US Constitution again. The socialist left will move rapidly to impose authorities most of us would never agree to in any election. Civil war would be assured.

          Either way there will be challenges over the results, the vote counts, the election methods, probably even the concept of public elections rather than allowing the intellectuals and experts to dictate our lives for us.

          I sincerely wish that I could witness just one national election in which I could truly get behind and support a candidate, rather than always having to vote for the lesser of two evils.

          Responding in the spirit of the OP, speculating on future events. I try to remain hopeful, but I have a good supply of ammo on hand as well.

          Comment


          • #7
            I'm still hoping that Dr. Ben Carson will become America's first black President...

            Comment


            • #8
              Originally posted by Aidokea View Post
              I'm still hoping that Dr. Ben Carson will become America's first black President...
              I'm still hoping that Trump will become a president.

              Comment


              • #9
                Originally posted by retired137 View Post

                I'm still hoping that Trump will become a president.
                Your hopes have been realized...

                Comment


                • #10
                  Should things go as Ratatatat suggests, my agency will more than like issue endless public statements reminding people of what our public safety role is and assuring everyone we will be there, day in, day out, rain or shine to keep them safe within the scope of our legislative mandated responsibilities. Notice the politician's weasel words I used. The department will use something similar, but much more flowery while saying little of substance.

                  The reality is, our agency head is a political appointee who serves at the pleasure of the appointing authority. To a considerable degree, he must bend whichever way the wind blows, not just for the good of his own career, but for the welfare of the department and the staff he oversees. If he doesn't bend to the right degree at just the right time, some angry group of politicians may decide to wipe out the entire department by legislative fiat. His is a balancing act, not only to please his masters, but to protect the public and his employees. That's a hard, hard balancing act.

                  There is no telling what the "official position" will wind up being should Ratatatat's scenario come about, but no doubt it will be contrary to the principles of basic law, good police work and possible the constitution, or it may venture into areas where there simply is no law. Here's where things will become interesting (at least within my agency).

                  Within our organization, many commands have evolved to become their own little kingdoms, operating by their own commander's rules and not department policy. This tends to breed a certain degree of arrogance and one occasionally hears the phrase, "We don't have to obey the rules, we're the (insert agency name). This causes things to get pulled in multiple directions and at times, makes it hard to maintain any sense of unity within the organization. This also makes it hard to figure out what the local response will be to the Headquarters "official position". No doubt it will vary from command to command. Some will obey, some will give Headquarters the finger. Your guess is as good as mine. It will probably depend on the commander and whether he is "fire proof" (is eligible to retire at any time).

                  Lastly, there is a private website for officers within my agency to discuss internal matters on a frank and open basis. There has been a lot of "what if" discussions among the troops, talking about how they would respond should things go the way Ratatatat describes. There has been no consensus and disagreements are considerable. So within each command, many of which act as their own little kingdom, there may be revolts among the officers as to who will do what, and with which, and to whom. Fun times.

                  In short, I think you will see a unified response from my department only on paper.

                  I'm so glad to be retired.

                  Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Originally posted by L-1 View Post
                    I'm so glad to be retired.
                    How do I high-five that post?

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Originally posted by Aidokea View Post

                      Your hopes have been realized...
                      Why thank you, I thought I was having a nightmare about current events and there was a president that could lead the country out of divisiveness, a pandemic and had true leadership qualities. Time for 5mg of Melatonin again.

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        I know this.

                        Whatever is left of Portland will burn. It will be what... 150 days straight of “demonstrations”?

                        Oh and there will be crying. Lots of crying.

                        My agency won’t have any substantive changes. Change like the above predictions will take a long time. I mean, we only stopped using 1970s era....No wait. That’s stuff still around.
                        semper destravit

                        Comment


                        • Aidokea
                          Aidokea commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Edited- I think I misread your post...
                          Last edited by Aidokea; 08-20-2020, 10:54 AM.

                        • RGDS
                          RGDS commented
                          Editing a comment
                          What are you talking about?


                          Wait? Do you think I will be crying?‽
                          Last edited by RGDS; 08-19-2020, 11:04 PM.

                      • #14
                        Originally posted by retired137 View Post

                        Why thank you, I thought I was having a nightmare about current events and there was a president that could lead the country out of divisiveness, a pandemic and had true leadership qualities. Time for 5mg of Melatonin again.
                        You either need more meds or less- your current dosage is not working...

                        Comment


                        • #15
                          He’s a troll...
                          Now go home and get your shine box!

                          Comment

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