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  • Red flag laws

    what are your views on red flag laws ? do you have any thoughts on taking away firearms from people without due process?

  • #2
    Trying to start more?
    Now go home and get your shine box!

    Comment


    • #3
      Thoughts? Yes I have a few thoughts.

      The politicians passing these laws will never be the first in line at the front door when attempting to deprive citizens of lawful property without due process of law. They will rely on young cops to fill that function, then they will either:

      a. openly mourn the loss of a cop's life in the line of duty; or

      b. vilify the cops for having to use reasonable force to overcome a law-abiding citizen defending his/her constitutionally-guaranteed rights against oppressive government.

      Either way, the politician can twist the outcome for the next election cycle.

      By the way, NICS records show that last month set a new record for firearms transactions in the US; over 800,000 in a month. That equates to nearly 10 million for the year. This is in addition to an estimated 350-400 million firearms in the hands of 110-120 million US citizens. Now the government that wants us to believe there is no way to deal with 12-20 million illegal aliens in the US wants us to believe that they can easily disarm the law-abiding American public.

      Comment


      • NOLA2005
        NOLA2005 commented
        Editing a comment
        The more the Democratic candidates talk, the higher the gun sales, and for good reason.

    • #4
      Originally posted by roadrunner5877 View Post
      what are your views on red flag laws ? do you have any thoughts on taking away firearms from people without due process?
      Without due process?

      what is due process when you arrest someone? Do they get a court hearing before you arrest them or after?

      I would wager that few commenting here (or no one) has ever been on duty when one of these was served, let alone actually serve one.
      semper destravit

      Comment


      • #5
        Originally posted by RGDS View Post

        Without due process?

        what is due process when you arrest someone? Do they get a court hearing before you arrest them or after?

        I would wager that few commenting here (or no one) has ever been on duty when one of these was served, let alone actually serve one.
        Due process is a phrase directly from the US Constitution, which states that no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. As generally defined, due process means that a person is innocent until proven guilty, has a right to confront his accusers, has a right against self-incrimination, has a right to privacy in his home, property, papers, and effects, has a right to a speedy trial by a jury of his peers, etc.

        Red Flag laws turn due process completely upside down. Orders are based upon the testimony of a person taken in ex parte proceedings (no notice to or involvement by the accused), no clear showing of fact amounting to probable cause is required, accused has no opportunity to challenge the witness or evidence prior to enforcement action, and once served it becomes the accused's responsibility to prove the facts at his/her own expense in order to have the property returned and court orders lifted. Since such court proceedings are matters of public record, a Red Flag order could easily become very damaging to the accused (job or career, business reputation, etc) and the orders ate permanent until successfully challenged and overturned.

        Your wager (that none of us has direct personal experience with a Red Flag case) is a pretty safe bet, as these have only become a public issue over recent months. It is interesting to note that one of the very first Red Flag cases in the country involved a military veteran who decided to resist, and was killed by the officers. Smart cops and department heads are thinking about these issues now, before they are faced with the direct experience.

        Comment


        • #6
          Do people who get arrested have a chance to challenge their accusers prior to the handcuffs being put on? Are they typically told they are going to be arrested before they are arrested?

          Probable Cause isnt required? I can only speak to California, but here you have to get a Judge to sign off on it before you do anything. PC is required to satisfy a Judge.

          Californis’s Law has been on the books for a couple of years. It’s use has increased since it’s creation. Can you cite the case you are talking about?
          semper destravit

          Comment


          • #7
            Originally posted by RGDS View Post
            Do people who get arrested have a chance to challenge their accusers prior to the handcuffs being put on? Are they typically told they are going to be arrested before they are arrested?

            Probable Cause isnt required? I can only speak to California, but here you have to get a Judge to sign off on it before you do anything. PC is required to satisfy a Judge.

            Californis’s Law has been on the books for a couple of years. It’s use has increased since it’s creation. Can you cite the case you are talking about?
            I must disagree. Not only is probable cause not required, there is no requirement to present evidence that a crime has been committed, is being committed, or is about to be committed. All that is required is for a person who claims to know the accused to swear under oath that he/she has firearms and is a danger to self or others. In other words, speculation about possible future events.

            Probable cause is defined as knowledge of facts and circumstances that cause a reasonable person to believe that a crime has been committed and that the crime was committed by a particular person (in the case of arrest warrants), or that a search of a particular person, place, structure, automobile, etc, will result in recovery of evidence of a crime (in the case of search warrants). In either case we are discussing criminal acts, not possible future events.

            Warrantless arrests are permitted in narrowly defined circumstances, and when a warrantless arrest takes place there are requirements for prompt notification of the courts and the submission of affidavits of probable cause (again, specifically related to actual criminal acts, not suspicion or speculation), as well as strict time limits on a hearing to determine whether or not probable cause had, in fact, existed and required immediate action prior to seeking a proper warrant. A warrantless arrest shown to have occurred without probable cause subjects the arresting officers and agencies to both criminal and civil penalties for civil rights violations.

            As for citing cases, a quick google search will bring up several "red flag" incidents in which citizens have been detained, arrested, injured, and at least one killed during execution of these ex parte unconstitutional orders. Unfortunately, it will take several years for any of these cases to matriculate through the courts until judges more interested in applying and enforcing the Constitution, rather than reactionary activist judges intent upon pursuing a social agenda, take forceful action.

            Here is a link to the Maryland case I mentioned (there are more):
            https://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2018/...rundel-county/

            Argue the facts of a specific case any way you like; the unavoidable conclusion is that issuance and enforcement of the "red flag" order created a situation in which a man was killed, and the situation did not escalate to a dangerous level until the "red flag" order was issued and served. Emphasis: NO CRIME HAD BEEN COMMITTED before the "red flag" proceeding.

            You may also wish to research a US Supreme Court case (search "Bad Elk Supreme Court"), in which the Court ruled that Mr. Bad Elk was lawfully protecting his Constitutional rights when he resisted a warrantless arrest for which no probable cause existed, and he shot and killed a police officer. The Court ruling establishes that a citizen may use deadly force in defense of his constitutional rights when government is acting beyond the scope of the Constitution's restrictions.

            In the United States we simply do not allow ex post facto laws or preventive measures (detention, deprivation of property, etc)
            depriving citizens of constitutionally-guaranteed rights. That is the essence of "due process of law".

            Comment


            • #8
              No PC required for Red Flag seizures. It’s based on hearsay, nothing else.

              I believe THAT is the concern.
              Now go home and get your shine box!

              Comment


              • #9
                Originally posted by roadrunner5877 View Post
                what are your views on red flag laws ? do you have any thoughts on taking away firearms from people without due process?
                It depends on how they are written.

                A law that requires probable cause,
                provides due process
                and a means for the respondent to defend himself are fine.

                Laws that allow a judge to suspend someone's rights without those things... and that require cops to kick in doors and confiscate property without them… are not.

                what is due process when you arrest someone? Do they get a court hearing before you arrest them or after?
                ...but I'm not kicking in their door to arrest them without a warrant based in probable cause or exigent circumstances.

                ...and when I do arrest someone on the street the arrest is STILL based on probable cause.

                We aren't talking about out on the street, we're talking about literally kicking in doors and confiscating guns on hearsay.
                Last edited by tanksoldier; 10-03-2019, 11:46 AM.
                "I am a Soldier. I fight where I'm told and I win where I fight." -- GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

                "With a brother on my left and a sister on my right, we face…. We face what no one should face. We face, so no one else would face. We are in the face of Death." -- Holli Peet

                Comment


                • #10
                  Example


                  Next door neighbor hates person A, because Person A's dogs bark constantly.
                  Neighbor calls the cops and says he believes that Person A is a violent POS because he heard a small argument between Person A and his spouse.
                  Neighbor is aware that Person A has firearms in his house.
                  Neighbor then swears under oath that he believes Person A is unfit to have guns, but in all actuality just wants to be vindictive against him because of the dog issue. Neighbor uses the small argument between Person A and his spouse as evidence, despite nothing occurring.
                  Person A then loses their firearms under the proposed red flag laws due to the Neighbor's hearsay and deception.

                  Really rough example, but this is the way I understand the fear people have regarding red flag laws. Take my 2 cents with a grain of salt, the LEOs on this forum can give you a much more detailed explanation.

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    It depends on what you've been flagged for. At the end of the day it's gonna be the poluiticians who decide our fate. Politicians pass laws, and municipal servants enforce them. Right? So, with that said when the politicians decide we can no longer defend our rights then they'll have servants who enforce those red flag laws. As we lose more and more of the good guys through retirement and burnout, we'll get more of the foreign national flavor in LE and ultimately the loss of the American lawman. JMHO. The rest is a slippery slope.
                    trust your dog

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Originally posted by that's my hand View Post
                      It depends on what you've been flagged for. At the end of the day it's gonna be the poluiticians who decide our fate. Politicians pass laws, and municipal servants enforce them. Right? So, with that said when the politicians decide we can no longer defend our rights then they'll have servants who enforce those red flag laws. As we lose more and more of the good guys through retirement and burnout, we'll get more of the foreign national flavor in LE and ultimately the loss of the American lawman. JMHO. The rest is a slippery slope.
                      I'm curious, what is an American lawman? I'm on the Fire side and I chuckle in the station when the conversation gravitates towards the quality and flavor of people that are hired now. I ask them who was the last individual hired under the rule of one where they go straight down the list based on your ranking, no nepotism, no politically correct hiring and a performance based physical agility/ability test. They all look at each other because they have no idea how the standards have been as I say "minimized". I am the last hired (1978) under that process.on a 400 person department. Processes and people change, we would have never hired anyone under 6' tall, now I hear them complain about the quality of firefighters that are being hired and they came in the door at 5'8". I have then look at my rookie class picture and the first thing that comes out of thier mouth is "damn all of you were big" . Then they get the idea, we may not like it, but it will get done without us there.
                      Last edited by retired137; 10-04-2019, 01:23 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        Originally posted by retired137 View Post

                        I'm curious, what is an American lawman? I'm on the Fire side and I chuckle in the station when the conversation gravitates towards the quality and flavor of people that are hired now. I ask them who was the last individual hired under the rule of one where they go straight down the list based on your ranking, no nepotism, no politically correct hiring and a performance based physical agility/ability test. They all look at each other because they have no idea how the standards have been as I say "minimized". I am the last hired (1978) under that process.on a 400 person department. Processes and people change, we would have never hired anyone under 6' tall, now I hear them complain about the quality of firefighters that are being hired and they came in the door at 5'8". I have then look at my rookie class picture and the first thing that comes out of thier mouth is "damn all of you were big" . Then they get the idea, we may not like it, but it will get done without us there.
                        That has NOTHING to do with this topic.
                        Now go home and get your shine box!

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          Originally posted by RGDS View Post

                          I would wager that few commenting here (or no one) has ever been on duty when one of these was served, let alone actually serve one.
                          I know a guy who knows a guy.
                          I make my living on Irish welfare.

                          Comment


                          • #15

                            Let me ask a question: How are red flag laws any different than an order of protection/restraining order?
                            I make my living on Irish welfare.

                            Comment

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