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Oregon governor dispatches state police to find lawmakers

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Ratatatat View Post
    .

    STOP IT with the 'better come heavily armed' rhetoric.



    https://expo.oregonlive.com/news/g66...an-1-2019.html


    Then dpn't send your troopers to essentially kidnap an a citizen, and they will live long and healthy lives.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by 11b101abn View Post
      Then dpn't send your troopers to essentially kidnap an a citizen, and they will live long and healthy lives.
      Legislators have duties above and beyond the citizens who elect them. Article 4, Section 12 of the Oregon State Constitution says " Two thirds of each house shall constitute a quorum to do business, but a smaller number may meet; adjourn from day to day, and compel the attendance of absent members." (emphasis mine)

      Those guys should have read the job description before they ran for office.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Seventy2002 View Post

        Legislators have duties above and beyond the citizens who elect them.
        They are doing their job by NOT being there. The liberal super-majority is trying to pass absurd laws. The only way they can stop it is to prevent a quorum.

        The only way they CAN represent their constituents is to be absent.

        ...and for the record, the liberals did the same thing in the early 90s when the conservatives had control.

        Then dpn't send your troopers to essentially kidnap an a citizen, and they will live long and healthy lives.
        Not kidnapping if the law and the state constitution require it, any more than an arrest is...
        "I am a Soldier. I fight where I'm told and I win where I fight." -- GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

        "With a brother on my left and a sister on my right, we face…. We face what no one should face. We face, so no one else would face. We are in the face of Death." -- Holli Peet

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by tanksoldier View Post
          The only way they can stop it is to prevent a quorum.
          What's the point of a democratic system of government if it's OK for the minority to frustrate the will of the majority?

          ...and for the record, the liberals did the same thing in the early 90s when the conservatives had control.
          Presumably because the conservatives were trying to pass absurd laws. It was still a cheap trick and subjected them to being rounded up by the State Police and hauled back to Salem.

          Comment


          • #20
            It was still a cheap trick and subjected them to being rounded up by the State Police and hauled back to Salem.

            And a spark for the hayseed Oregon militia to grab their ARs for another confrontation with LE....
            Convictions, in the end, they can be dangerous. But a world without them is just kind of an awful, gray, amorphous mass.

            -Bono

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Seventy2002 View Post

              What's the point of a democratic system of government if it's OK for the minority to frustrate the will of the majority?



              Presumably because the conservatives were trying to pass absurd laws. It was still a cheap trick and subjected them to being rounded up by the State Police and hauled back to Salem.
              In the United States we do not have democratic government. Our form of government is best described as a constitutional republic. The difference is that the constitution limits government and protects individual liberties from government abuse.

              Those who prefer direct democracy (majority rules with no restraint) would have loved Mississippi about 1960, when the majority ruled that minorities had no rights and deserved no protections. The minorities did not believe they were frustrating "the will of the majority", just standing up for individual liberties.

              Using the constitution and laws to hinder, delay, or simply call public attention to the excesses of legislators is not a "cheap trick", it is a responsible action taken by conscientious people in serving the public.

              Suggested reading: "Decision in Philadelphia", "The Federalist Papers", "The Anti-Federalist Papers", the United States Constitution and Bill of Rights.

              Comment


              • #22
                Using the constitution and laws to hinder, delay, or simply call public attention to the excesses of legislators is not a "cheap trick", it is a responsible action taken by conscientious people in serving the public.
                I get that. Fully support it as well.

                But that's not what happened in this case: Elected representatives didn't want to vote on a bill so they skipped town, despite constitutional attendance rules. Governor threatened to send state troopers to get them. One of the elected representatives made threats of violence to state troopers. Anti-gov chawbacons and militia hotheads, always looking for a fight, hear the whistle and respond to state capitol to exercise their First and Second Amendments and provide security for elected representatives in case troopers show up. Ultimately cooler heads prevail and tensions ease and no shots get fired BUT...

                This is not how civil society functions. This is how the threads that hold a country together begins to fray. What worked without bloodshed today may not work tomorrow. And history is chockfull of small violent events that sparked big violent events, like John Browns raid on Harper's Ferry or the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand. Elected officials need to smarten up with the rhetoric lest history repeats itself.
                Convictions, in the end, they can be dangerous. But a world without them is just kind of an awful, gray, amorphous mass.

                -Bono

                Comment


                • #23
                  I'll also add this: many of these militias are actively recruiting LEOs to join their ranks for the day when they get the violent confrontation they so piningly long for. They would loooove to have the value add of skills and tactics and discipline and knowledge LEOs could bring for when their membership of plumbers and roofers and felons get to face off against LE. A self-appointed leader of a local militia used to broadcast a nano radio station from his house and when I would drive by, I would occasionally tune in to get the scoop on where the nearest UN Blackhawks were staging or how to build a solar water still. I would also frequently hear recruitment messages specifically targeting active/former military and LE. Word.
                  Convictions, in the end, they can be dangerous. But a world without them is just kind of an awful, gray, amorphous mass.

                  -Bono

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I'll finish my three-post diatribe with this low, dirty truth: what concerns me most about situations like we saw in Oregon last week is they seem to be happening with greater frequency, with greater political encouragement, and with greater margin of risk of becoming violent. And the ultimate outcome seems to be trending more and more towards what was once considered unthinkable: civil war.

                    More and more sociologists, historians, and people who study why societies descend into chaos are saying we are headed that direction. They point to factors like tribal politics... breakdowns in traditional methods of conflict resolution... and economic disparity. Think about this for a second: the three wealthiest people have more money than the bottom 50% of this country. That's right- the $250,000,000,000 owned by Gates, Bezos, and Buffet is worth more than what the bottom 160,000,000 people have. I'm no advocate of socialism by any means, but any student of history recognizes that a consistent thread in prior major world social upheavals, i.e. the French revolution, the Russian revolution, heck, countless others dating back to the second dynasty in Egypt circa 2700 bc, is when resentment about the gap between the Haves and the Have Nots hits a boiling point. There are slew of other factors to add to the volatile mix: urban vs. rural divide, ubiquity of guns and ease in obtaining, and I'd be remiss by not including social media, specifically how people form opinions and assign loyalties in the era of facebook, twitter, and all other inaccurate, biased and downright inflammatory sources of information.

                    God forbid we ever suffer a second civil war. The last one was bad enough (620,000 dead) and that was the era of muskets and cannonballs. When I think about hypothetical situations- would it be region vs. region? Massive violent riots in cities or ragtag armies fighting over large swaths of countryside? Mob rule? Raiding and pillaging? Marshall law? Tanks rolling through the streets? On and on... my heart hurts.

                    Which is why I find the growing rejection of conventional norms of finding common agreeance (which isn't flawless but has worked for generations) and the tearing of our connective tissue so alarming. I hope I am wrong and the harbingers of possible violent upheaval turn out just to be flotsam washing ashore in a consistently changing world. I fear that I am right and one day, history will look back at this time and say, 'the indicators were all there.'

                    Convictions, in the end, they can be dangerous. But a world without them is just kind of an awful, gray, amorphous mass.

                    -Bono

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      An addendum for any preppers out there: Civil war now tops my list of End Of Times scenarios to ready for. Also on my list (in descending order of concern):

                      Nuclear war: hundreds of millions would die in the initial volleys. But billions would still be left to deal with nuclear winter and the effects of contamination.

                      Climate change: scientists are predicting massive crop shortages due to temperature stress, increasing numbers of invasive crop eating pests, decreasing numbers of pollinator species, and salt water intrusion (parts of eastern North Carolina, some of the most fertile farming land in the country, are now fallow due to frequent ocean overwash). Plus, consider the tens of millions of displaced people who live along the coasts who will be forced inland but with no property, no income source, no nothing (see Civil war).

                      Zombies: What seemed like science fiction is becoming more and more like a real possibility as re-animation technology progresses.

                      A.I: Again, what seemed like science fiction is becoming more and more like a real possibility as computers and robots get smarter and smarter.




                      Convictions, in the end, they can be dangerous. But a world without them is just kind of an awful, gray, amorphous mass.

                      -Bono

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Ratatat, I have to just say "WOW" to your recent additions to this post. You have obviously spent a great deal of time and effort developing your opinions and arguments on these issues.

                        I agree that another civil war will be devastating for our nation, and such should be avoided if at all possible. However, I submit that the second American Civil War has been underway for at least a decade or so and continues with full support of many of our so-called "political leaders" as well as the intellectual elitists in charge of what used to be our educational institutions. To date we have been engaged primarily in the "cold war" phase, but spontaneous incidents of outright warfare have occurred and are likely to continue.

                        The conflict has been characterized as one between the "haves" and the "have nots", but can be more accurately described as being a struggle between the "wills" and the "will nots". Politicians have found that they can (quite easily) buy the votes of large constituencies with nothing more than promises to "make the rich pay their fair share", "taxing the big corporations", promising ever-increasing benefits and payments, and other populist rhetoric, while simultaneously dumbing down public education and attacking the foundations of our nation on a wholesale basis, and creating suspicion and animosity between groups based upon race, ethnicity, social and economic status, all for political gain.

                        As you said quite well, the signs are all there, and the majority have failed to pay attention. The conflict will continue so long as there is political advantage to be gained, and then it will spiral out of control. Whether or not our republic can survive remains to be seen.

                        I am an 11th generation American born on land granted to my ancestor in lieu of salary due for service in the Revolutionary War. My great-grandfather was killed in the American Civil War. My grandfather (Army chaplain) was gassed in the trenches in France during WW1 and never drew a pain-free breath again. My father served in WW2, shot in the head in the South Pacific campaign. My oldest brother served in Korea (Silver Star, Purple Heart). I served in Vietnam (Airborne Infantry, Bronze Star, Purple Heart). One son served in Gulf War 1, and later recalled for Afghanistan. I have 3 grandchildren currently serving in the US armed forces.

                        I also have 4 great-grandchildren and would like to see them live their lives without the strife caused by political ambitions and avarice.

                        By the way, I am also a "One Percenter", having built a small business from nothing to a multi-national corporation and retiring with 1.6 million in addition to my law enforcement retirement funds. While many of my peers were living upside down in debt my wife and I limited ourselves, paid our bills off as rapidly as possible, and saved and invested. While others were refinancing their houses ever couple of years to pay off the credit cards we were putting money into tax-deferred mutual funds and bond funds that are now yielding more income than I ever saw while working for a living.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Seventy2002 View Post
                          What's the point of a democratic system of government
                          We aren't a democracy we are a republic

                          if it's OK for the minority to frustrate the will of the majority?
                          Yes. That is EXACTLY why we are a republic instead of a democracy... to thwart the tyranny of the majority.

                          I suspect somebody slept thru civics class....
                          "I am a Soldier. I fight where I'm told and I win where I fight." -- GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

                          "With a brother on my left and a sister on my right, we face…. We face what no one should face. We face, so no one else would face. We are in the face of Death." -- Holli Peet

                          Comment

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