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Florida Deputy Suspended After Arresting Woman Speeding to Hospital to See Dad

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  • #46
    Originally posted by kingsman View Post
    Sorry. Need to update my history again. I am an ex law enforcement officer and I did graduate from FLETC. Currently I work armed security for the federal government.

    So yes, I understand the force continuum, and I understand how to deal with people under stress.

    From the video, she did not appear to be activly resistant. She drove away. She did not threaten the officer. She did not swing at the officer. She was in the middle of a personal crisis that effected her judgement. The officer entered
    her personal crisis without being aware of an underlying problem and did not take the time to find out what her problem was. If he had, he probably would have handled it differently.

    But, as I said earlier, several people have said the officer would have been within his rights to draw his weapon. HE WOULD NOT. If he had he would have been fired. And slamming someone into a car is NOT one of the contact controls or compliance techniques we were taught. It might fit under defensive tactics...but I don't believe we were taught that either.
    I can and have dawn my gun at a traffic stop. I can draw my gun anytime somthing fishy is going on if i want to.

    Every officer is fully within his rights as a officer to draw his weapon when dealing with a suspicious person or dangerous situation.

    someone who was being detained ( not free to elave aka traffic stop) is a dangerous situation when they are hysterical flee the scene and resists verbal commands.

    department policioes may differ but i dont see how he could be punished for drawing his gun at that situation.

    I take it when a car full of punk kids drives off after you stop them and go back to check there info, they knowing they have warrants run off you follow you dont think drawing your gun if they stopped again is a good idea?
    Last edited by OverCharged; 05-04-2007, 08:07 PM.

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    • #47
      EDIT: Actually after checking the video a second time it appeared he was a bit too rough with her. Then again, it's not possible to feel the level of resistance the woman was dishing out. Having seen she was driving away from an officer who had just commanded her to stay, it isn't out of the realm of possibility that she would also resist arrest. Hard to say. I would give the officer the benefit of the doubt on this one.

      Maybe (and probably) I am wrong about this but does anybody here think a convoy/escort would have been acceptable or is that only for an emergency a passenger is having?
      Last edited by djack16; 05-04-2007, 08:25 PM.
      -I don't feel you honor someone by creating a physical gesture (the salute). You honor them by holding them in memory and, in law enforcement, proceeding in vigilant, ethical police work. You honor this country or deceased soldiers or whatever you're honoring when you salute a flag by thinking, feeling, and continuing a life of freedom.

      --ArkansasRed24

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      • #48
        Why couldn`t he put her in the back of his cruiser the first time that he stopped her,driver to the hospital since she was so hysterical and then write her the ticket for breaking the law? He would had helped her with her situation and made her paid for breaking the law.Both parties would have been happy.Something similar to this happened to my sister. She was at work when she got the call that her daughter was in the hospital,she got hysterical ,she got stopped on her way to the hospital for speeding, she explained the situation to the officer , the officer drover her to the hospital where my niece was and then wrote her the ticket which she deserved for speeding.Best of both worlds
        I`d rather have one hundred enemies than one backstabbing friend.

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        • #49
          Why couldn`t he put her in the back of his cruiser the first time that he stopped her
          Why would we ever get someone out of their vehicle and place them in the back of our car over a speeding ticket? Maybe if they were making furitive movements that would cause a terry frisk of them and the vehicle, but other than that, I don't get people out of the vehicle when I write them for a moving violation.
          I'm 10-8 like a shark in a sea of crime..

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by djack16 View Post
            Maybe (and probably) I am wrong about this but does anybody here think a convoy/escort would have been acceptable or is that only for an emergency a passenger is having?
            No convoys or escorts, because if there is a collision en route to the hospital, you and your department are going to be named in the lawsuit.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by alpha1906 View Post
              Who said she was driving recklessly? She was speeding. You all have assumed she was driving recklessly. And please dont tell me you dont speed. How many Americans under the age of 50 do you know that actually drive the speed limit?
              When she was running form the police, she sure was driving wrecklessly ..... in a parking lot .
              Space for rent .........

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              • #52
                Originally posted by kingsman View Post
                You know I don't usually disagree with people here, but I will this time.

                He was wrong.
                He deserved the suspension.
                He needs to learn, and perhaps time to think will allow him to reconsider.
                I would also put him thru retraining, and it appears a number of people here also need retraining. In MY opinion.

                Look at the use of force model.

                She was at most passively resistant. Passive resistance = sitting down and refusing to get up. Active resistance = fleeing. Reckless conduct = putting many others at risk of great bodily injury ....... like, well - RUNNING FROM THE POLICE AT A HIGH RATE OF SPEED IN A PARKING LOT.
                Yes she was in a car. But she did not try to run the officer over, so she wasn't assaultive, so at no point could you make the arguement that the officer had a reason to pull a gun. I just don't believe that you have really ever worked lawenforcement - or at least lawenforcement in a place where real crime occurs. I have pulled and pointed my firearm at PLENTY of people who were not "assaultive." Someone in a stolen car? You better damn well be skippy that they will have a gun on them. Run from me in a car and I catch up? Plan to have a 45 cal barrel in your face. Really, please tell me you WAIT to get shot at before you pull your gun out.

                Have any of you ever worked in an emergency room? Do you have any idea how many people drive themselves there for heart attacks or other life threatening reasons that shouldn't? I have. I have seen people drive in with missing digits nad having heart attacks. In a crisis, people do not always think straight. They do stupid things.

                There is a reason why many police have that motto, to protect and serve. His actions did not protect anybody. ???????? And you are saying that hers did? Are you saying that he should not have followed her even though she quite well could have been DUI or worse? His actions did not serve the public trust.

                Yes, write her a ticket. She was clearly distraught and he should have tried to find out the reason for her problem. That is also part of his job. What if she had had a problem and was rushing to the police department? Would he have still arrested her? No more what ifs. How about no more stupid what ifs? I bet ...... I really bet if she was running TO the police department, she would not have run FROM a police officer.
                We need to as a society stop trying officers based on "how it looks." Chiefs need to man up and talk the way real leaders do. Stand up for their men. I am tired of politicians.
                Space for rent .........

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                • #53
                  What about these people who don't have insurance cards who give you their cell phone saying their insurance agent is on the line. But, you know, I guess some of our amateurs and fifty year veterans here would talk to them.
                  I'd rather hear these BS excuses from the public than have another officer call me up to have me take care of a ticket I wrote for some whiney *** neighbor, friend or some guy who gave him a discount on furniture. Take care of it yourself, I've never bothered a coworker for some crap like that.
                  The liberal politician has the only job where they go to the office to work for everyone but those who pay their salary.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by kingsman View Post
                    Sorry. Need to update my history again. I am an ex law enforcement officer and I did graduate from FLETC. Currently I work armed security for the federal government.

                    So yes, I understand the force continuum, and I understand how to deal with people under stress.

                    From the video, she did not appear to be activly resistant. She drove away. She did not threaten the officer. She did not swing at the officer. She was in the middle of a personal crisis that effected her judgement. The officer entered
                    her personal crisis without being aware of an underlying problem and did not take the time to find out what her problem was. If he had, he probably would have handled it differently.

                    But, as I said earlier, several people have said the officer would have been within his rights to draw his weapon. HE WOULD NOT. If he had he would have been fired. And slamming someone into a car is NOT one of the contact controls or compliance techniques we were taught. It might fit under defensive tactics...but I don't believe we were taught that either.
                    Force continuum! More textbook answers from another expert poster.
                    Don't give us this 'I'm an ex law enforcement officer'. Where did you work and what did you do, because you don't sound like the Real Police. You know what the Real Police is!
                    Last edited by tony.o; 05-05-2007, 01:17 AM.
                    The liberal politician has the only job where they go to the office to work for everyone but those who pay their salary.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by tony.o View Post
                      Don't give us this 'I'm an ex law enforcement officer'. Where did you work and what did you do, because you don't sound like the Real Police. You know what the Real Police is!
                      And how do we know you're a real LEO....? We don't.....no one knows....you just hope you can guess properly......

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Bearcat357 View Post
                        And how do we know you're a real LEO....? We don't.....no one knows....you just hope you can guess properly......
                        No guessing, I can tell right away by the tone of a post who is a police officer, who deals or has dealt with the public. He's an 'ex LEO', disclosure shouldn't be a problem, I want to know where he worked prior to being a security guard with all those fancy classes. An 'ex LEO' could mean two years on some five man department which ain't gonna qualify one to lecture others on what he'd do or how he'd handle this or that. Or some auxillary guy, who should know his place, with five years on, who probably has a total of two actual months of working hours, who hasn't had the exposure that others have had.
                        It's about experience and exposure.
                        You get it!
                        Oprah Winfrey could have written his touchy feely 'what if' posts.
                        Last edited by tony.o; 05-05-2007, 02:18 AM.
                        The liberal politician has the only job where they go to the office to work for everyone but those who pay their salary.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by scratched13 View Post
                          We need to as a society stop trying officers based on "how it looks." Chiefs need to man up and talk the way real leaders do. Stand up for their men. I am tired of politicians.
                          Ding ding!!! Could have handled it better, but it wasn't excessive force. Not by CO's definitions at least.

                          Yes, I am a real Police. Since everybody's debating that now .

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Geez, do I really need to explain my experience? No, it probably wasn't as long or distinguished as most officers on here. If I wanted to be obtuse, I could say I dealt with over 20 thousand traffic stops in my career. It wouldn't be a lie, but it wouldn't be the truth either.

                            But I don't ask for your credentials every time you say something, why ask for mine?

                            Point is, I graduated from a law enforcement acadamy. I believe I understand the "use of force" continuum because I am still required to follow it in my current position.

                            I have seen officers who "IN MY OPINION" abused their authority or exceeded the force required in a situation. In most instances, it was because they were brash and young and did not have good interview or people skills. They got away with it, but maybe they should have recieved more training. I don't believe police officers are better or different than other citizens, and
                            when they make mistakes on the job, they need to recieve instuctions.

                            Maybe you and others think my attitude is too laid back. But, since my grandfather, father, and mother were all in law enforcement at one time, I rely on what they taught me as much as what I learned in the acadamy.

                            Remember that old line "the totality of the situation"? Thats what he needed to look at here.

                            It was a legitimate stop.
                            She deserved a ticket.

                            The officer should have handled it differently. He probably made assumptions that were wrong. He should have put the testosterone on hold and listened to the driver.
                            Though their numbers are many, as the grass upon the field, we will count them at the end of the day.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by pp48n
                              Wait..... I am confused.... when can I draw my firearm.......?
                              Well, if your confused about that, then I would say never. Just drop it off on the Chief's desk and head for Walmart.
                              It takes a Wolf.......

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by kingsman View Post
                                Sorry. Need to update my history again. I am an ex law enforcement officer and I did graduate from FLETC. Currently I work armed security for the federal government.

                                So yes, I understand the force continuum, and I understand how to deal with people under stress.

                                From the video, she did not appear to be activly resistant. She drove away. She did not threaten the officer. She did not swing at the officer. She was in the middle of a personal crisis that effected her judgement. The officer entered
                                her personal crisis without being aware of an underlying problem and did not take the time to find out what her problem was. If he had, he probably would have handled it differently.

                                But, as I said earlier, several people have said the officer would have been within his rights to draw his weapon. HE WOULD NOT. If he had he would have been fired. And slamming someone into a car is NOT one of the contact controls or compliance techniques we were taught. It might fit under defensive tactics...but I don't believe we were taught that either.
                                She WAS activly resistant. What you are describing, swinging at the deputy, is active aggresion, which would have stepped the level of force up to intermediate weapons. The level of force he used was within the continuum and was appropriate for the resistance that he met. Putting a person against a car doesn't work if it's done gently, but he really didn't do it that hard. Like others have said, watching the video you can't tell how much she was fighting him or trying to pull away. I also think that he would have been fine drawing his weapon. I can draw my weapon any time that I feel it's needed and nobody will say a word about it. Aparently you are the one who needs to go back and do more training or maybe get a little more real world experience.

                                Also, how did you go from a "night auditor" to a "federal security guard." Anybody else notice that he changed his profile? He also added an academy class to the profile and it now says that he is employed in LE. As far as the ex-law enforcement thing goes, I've noticed that when someone goes from law enforcement to security work there is usually a reason and it's rarely by choice. (Unless it's one of the high dollar jobs in the middle east.)
                                Last edited by AlabamaCop; 05-05-2007, 09:42 AM.

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