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Florida Deputy Suspended After Arresting Woman Speeding to Hospital to See Dad

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  • cst.sb
    replied
    Originally posted by djack16 View Post
    Maybe (and probably) I am wrong about this but does anybody here think a convoy/escort would have been acceptable or is that only for an emergency a passenger is having?
    No convoys or escorts, because if there is a collision en route to the hospital, you and your department are going to be named in the lawsuit.

    Leave a comment:


  • SgtScott31
    replied
    Why couldn`t he put her in the back of his cruiser the first time that he stopped her
    Why would we ever get someone out of their vehicle and place them in the back of our car over a speeding ticket? Maybe if they were making furitive movements that would cause a terry frisk of them and the vehicle, but other than that, I don't get people out of the vehicle when I write them for a moving violation.

    Leave a comment:


  • theconstipated1
    replied
    Why couldn`t he put her in the back of his cruiser the first time that he stopped her,driver to the hospital since she was so hysterical and then write her the ticket for breaking the law? He would had helped her with her situation and made her paid for breaking the law.Both parties would have been happy.Something similar to this happened to my sister. She was at work when she got the call that her daughter was in the hospital,she got hysterical ,she got stopped on her way to the hospital for speeding, she explained the situation to the officer , the officer drover her to the hospital where my niece was and then wrote her the ticket which she deserved for speeding.Best of both worlds

    Leave a comment:


  • djack16
    replied
    EDIT: Actually after checking the video a second time it appeared he was a bit too rough with her. Then again, it's not possible to feel the level of resistance the woman was dishing out. Having seen she was driving away from an officer who had just commanded her to stay, it isn't out of the realm of possibility that she would also resist arrest. Hard to say. I would give the officer the benefit of the doubt on this one.

    Maybe (and probably) I am wrong about this but does anybody here think a convoy/escort would have been acceptable or is that only for an emergency a passenger is having?
    Last edited by djack16; 05-04-2007, 08:25 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • OverCharged
    replied
    Originally posted by kingsman View Post
    Sorry. Need to update my history again. I am an ex law enforcement officer and I did graduate from FLETC. Currently I work armed security for the federal government.

    So yes, I understand the force continuum, and I understand how to deal with people under stress.

    From the video, she did not appear to be activly resistant. She drove away. She did not threaten the officer. She did not swing at the officer. She was in the middle of a personal crisis that effected her judgement. The officer entered
    her personal crisis without being aware of an underlying problem and did not take the time to find out what her problem was. If he had, he probably would have handled it differently.

    But, as I said earlier, several people have said the officer would have been within his rights to draw his weapon. HE WOULD NOT. If he had he would have been fired. And slamming someone into a car is NOT one of the contact controls or compliance techniques we were taught. It might fit under defensive tactics...but I don't believe we were taught that either.
    I can and have dawn my gun at a traffic stop. I can draw my gun anytime somthing fishy is going on if i want to.

    Every officer is fully within his rights as a officer to draw his weapon when dealing with a suspicious person or dangerous situation.

    someone who was being detained ( not free to elave aka traffic stop) is a dangerous situation when they are hysterical flee the scene and resists verbal commands.

    department policioes may differ but i dont see how he could be punished for drawing his gun at that situation.

    I take it when a car full of punk kids drives off after you stop them and go back to check there info, they knowing they have warrants run off you follow you dont think drawing your gun if they stopped again is a good idea?
    Last edited by OverCharged; 05-04-2007, 08:07 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • cst.sb
    replied
    Originally posted by amblnc38 View Post
    I'd have followed her to the hospital,
    That one could cost you bigtime. If she had an accident her lawyer would say she was following your direction. Massive liability.

    When we come across a situation like that, you call for medical aid. The only reason not to is if you're in a rural community.

    You don't let them continue on and put other people at risk.

    Someone else mentioned that lots of people drive themselves in panicked states to ERs. That's fine, because they assume the liability for that. However, once we get involved the liability changes.

    I saw a clip of this on the news, and I honestly don't care to watch it closely. The only thing I can say is, that he should have checked the status of the father immediately after arresting the female and called for EHS/EMS. That way the paramedics can decide if he is actual medical trouble and transport him to a hospital.

    Which pretty much means buddy is going to the hospital, because the paramedics won't assume the liability if the guy isn't faking, even if there are no visible signs of heart trouble.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scelous
    replied
    Have you seen the latest video, where the woman forgives the officer?

    http://www.emailthis.clickability.co...ToID=264080282

    (It's on CNN.com if you don't want to direct-link)

    I wanted to find a purely text link but couldn't; maybe someone else will spot one.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fëanor
    replied
    Originally posted by kingsman
    She was at most passively resistant.
    Yes she was in a car. But she did not try to run the officer over, so she wasn't assaultive, so at no point could you make the arguement that the officer had a reason to pull a gun.
    Trying to drive away is active resistance, is it not? A cop has no idea why she tried to drive away. It may have been to give her time to pop the loaded magazine into the empty pistol so she can shoot him in the face next time he comes up to her car.

    Besides, the officer never pulled his gun. I just think it would have been safer for him to do it.

    Originally posted by kingsman
    Have any of you ever worked in an emergency room? Do you have any idea how many people drive themselves there for heart attacks or other life threatening reasons that shouldn't? I have. I have seen people drive in with missing digits nad having heart attacks. In a crisis, people do not always think straight. They do stupid things.
    I agree with you on that one. When I used to work in a restaurant, one of the bakers cut off one of his fingers with a big knife. Our boss, helpful guy that he was, "disinfected" everything (liquor), showed the poor chef a map to the hospital, and made steering wheel motions (the chef didn't speak any English).

    Originally posted by kingsman
    There is a reason why many police have that motto, to protect and serve. His actions did not protect anybody. His actions did not serve the public trust.
    This is a separate debate, but if you do not think traffic enforcement protects the public you are WRONG

    Police, firefighters, and paramedics are legally allowed to speed to the hospital. We train them to do it, so stupid idiots like this woman don't try. Besides, she was just going to visit!

    Originally posted by kingsman
    the officer would have been within his rights to draw his weapon. HE WOULD NOT
    Then I am not clear on when a cop is allowed to draw his gun. I was always under the impression that if he thought he could be in danger he could pull his weapon.

    One time I was parked, looking for something in my car. When I looked up there were flashing red/blue lights behind me. I got out of the car to explain to the cops why I was sitting there, and my face was met with a couple of gun barrels and a lot of screaming for me to turn around and put my hands behind my head. Were those officers not justified in pointing their guns at me?
    Last edited by Fëanor; 05-04-2007, 07:00 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • detsarg
    replied
    Originally posted by alpha1906 View Post
    Ok AlabamaCop. I am in LE and I think you are wrong.

    It does not matter what we in law enforcement think. Turn on the news, check the Internet, read a paper; It matters what the public thinks. Anyone who has yet to grasp that as reality, not a concept, is still in denial.

    Leave a comment:


  • kingsman
    replied
    Sorry. Need to update my history again. I am an ex law enforcement officer and I did graduate from FLETC. Currently I work armed security for the federal government.

    So yes, I understand the force continuum, and I understand how to deal with people under stress.

    From the video, she did not appear to be activly resistant. She drove away. She did not threaten the officer. She did not swing at the officer. She was in the middle of a personal crisis that effected her judgement. The officer entered
    her personal crisis without being aware of an underlying problem and did not take the time to find out what her problem was. If he had, he probably would have handled it differently.

    But, as I said earlier, several people have said the officer would have been within his rights to draw his weapon. HE WOULD NOT. If he had he would have been fired. And slamming someone into a car is NOT one of the contact controls or compliance techniques we were taught. It might fit under defensive tactics...but I don't believe we were taught that either.

    Leave a comment:


  • OverCharged
    replied
    the mere fact all he used was soft hands that entire incident even though she FLED the scene in a moving veh after being stopped gave him the justification to take her out at gun point.

    she wasnt hurt and she wasnt even really put up against the car that hard.

    what if when he had approached that veh the 2nd time she had shot him he just kinda ran up to it. a women acting hysterical adn runnign away after less then 3 minutes stopped could have had all sorts of things going on in her head.

    sure he could have followed her into the hospital and checked her story but he also could have hooked her up the first time he stopped her and brought her to jail for criminal speeding.

    i take it you would be against him using force if she resisted his attempts to cuff and escort her to his patrol car for that to?

    peopel get pretty wishy washy somtimes just because its a chick. hell peopel are just to damn wishy washy in general these days.
    Last edited by OverCharged; 05-04-2007, 06:32 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • NeoSaffiru
    replied
    I'm a little confused and upset with the outcome of all this. I'm not currently an LEO, but I'm in the application process. Situations like this worry me, whats an applicant supposed to think when he sees stuff like this?

    The officer followed the law, and I don't see anyone here really debating that at all. The officer protected the community he was in by preventing a wreckless driver from continuing her actions. The officer served his community by upholding the laws that govern our society for the "greater good".

    I hope a real LEO can correct me if I'm wrong, maybe I have too much of a cynical view to do police work, but this all this seems unreal. Police departments arn't there to protect the individual, they're there to protect the public as a whole. They arnt there to serve the public, they're there to serve the US justice system and the country they live in. Indirectly they protect individuals and serve peoples needs, but only by upholding the laws.

    How idiotic would it be to say any one man, trained or not, can make the "right decision" for an entire country? He followed what the law said, and most likely the appropriate policy for his county. He did what the rules said, and rightfull so. People always say "The police arn't above the law" ... well guess what, that officer heard you. He didn't go "above the law" to cut you a break. He followed the law and put you in jail for being a nucklehead. Police work, as much as the sofites may hate it, isn't about running around making people feel better. If you want people to like you, join the fire department.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    I dont know what good driving recklessly through neighborhoods and then recklessly through a parking lot, passed the ER and apparently the rest of the hospital looking for her dads car would do, she said herself she didnt even know if he was there. a few phone calls perhaps? as far as force, it looked ok to me. I liked how fox news said he forced her up against the car so hard that her feet came off the ground.

    Leave a comment:


  • alpha1906
    replied
    Ok AlabamaCop. I am in LE and I think you are wrong.

    Leave a comment:


  • AlabamaCop
    replied
    Originally posted by kingsman View Post
    You know I don't usually disagree with people here, but I will this time.

    He was wrong.
    He deserved the suspension.
    He needs to learn, and perhaps time to think will allow him to reconsider.
    I would also put him thru retraining, and it appears a number of people here also need retraining. In MY opinion.

    Look at the use of force model.

    She was at most passively resistant.
    Yes she was in a car. But she did not try to run the officer over, so she wasn't assaultive, so at no point could you make the arguement that the officer had a reason to pull a gun.

    Have any of you ever worked in an emergency room? Do you have any idea how many people drive themselves there for heart attacks or other life threatening reasons that shouldn't? I have. I have seen people drive in with missing digits nad having heart attacks. In a crisis, people do not always think straight. They do stupid things.

    There is a reason why many police have that motto, to protect and serve. His actions did not protect anybody. His actions did not serve the public trust.

    Yes, write her a ticket. She was clearly distraught and he should have tried to find out the reason for her problem. That is also part of his job. What if she had had a problem and was rushing to the police department? Would he have still arrested her? No more what ifs.
    Here's my take on the whole thing. Yes, the deputy probably could have handled it better, but, I think he was justified in what he did. I also don't expect anyone that's not in LE to agree. The use of force continuum that most of us use is written where you can use one level above the suspects. You can also step the use of force up because you don't think that a lower level will work. The officer didn't hit her, so by our continuum he used soft-empty hand control, which is fine for a passively resistant subject. The problem is that policing isn't pretty and it doesn't look good to people who don't understand it. Also, she had already showed that she wasn't going to be cooperative in the fist place, which is a viable reason to escalate the use of force.

    I also think that the Sheriff knows the deputy wasn't wrong. If he really thought that excessive force was used, he would have fired the deputy.

    I also think that it's funny that a "night auditor" is posting telling a bunch of LE officers that they need to be re-trained when we spend hundreds of hours a year on training. I guess he knows how to do our job better than us.

    Leave a comment:

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