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  • #16
    Originally posted by xraodcop View Post
    2. Your DUI has REFUSED. So you:
    a. Take his license
    b. hand him a copy of a report (1 page) that is going to DMV--tells him he can ask for a Hearing. IT also tells him that since he refused, his license is gone for a YEAR.
    And like pretty much everyone with a suspended license, he will drive, go to jail again and get to see his car go to car jail for 30 days. Then he gets to find out that the impound yard will charge him about $75-150 for the tow, and $25-50 per day for storage. And of course, he will drive suspended again.
    Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. - Ronald Reagan

    I don't think It'll happen in the US because we don't trust our government. We are a country of skeptics, raised by skeptics, founded by skeptics. - Amaroq

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    • #17
      Originally posted by j706 View Post
      Those of you who have blood draw policy's, How much force can you use do conduct the draw on a refusal? Also on a refusal do you have to obtain a warrant? If so whats your success rate on getting one?
      If they refuse, you cannot use any force (unless there is serious bodily injury. Then you can use as much force as necessary). You do not need a warrant. If they refuse its just a 12 month suspension, among other things.

      A man should never be ashamed to own that he has been in the wrong, which is but saying... that he is wiser today than yesterday. Jonathan Swift 1667-1745

      It's only a conspiracy when your party is not in power.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by j706 View Post
        Those of you who have blood draw policy's, How much force can you use do conduct the draw on a refusal? Also on a refusal do you have to obtain a warrant? If so whats your success rate on getting one?
        According to Michigan law, if they refuse their license is automatically suspended. We can not proceed without getting a search warrant.

        The warrant is stupid-easy to get. We have a fill-in-the-blanks form we fill out and fax to the on-call judge, he has you raise your right hand over the phone from the hospital, then signs it and faxes it back. Then it's game on.

        As far as force, it's a search warrant, so you can use whatever force is necessary to execute it. Then be sure to add the Resisting and Obstructing charge to the warrant request!!!

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        • #19
          Impaired driving is a Federal criminal violation in Canada, pursuant to our Criminal Code. If a person, suspected of operating, or having had the care and control, of a motor vehicle, boat, plane or train, while impaired by alcohol, is physically incapable of providing a breath sample, due to poor lung capacity or as the result of injuries, a Peace Officer may DEMAND that they submit to the taking of 2 samples of their blood. Refusal to comply with this demand is a criminal offence.

          Such blood samples may ONLY be drawn by a Medical Practitioner, or a Nurse or Lab Technician under the direction of a Medical Practitioner, but if the Medical Practitioner believes that drawing the samples will cause further suffering to the "client", it may NOT be done AND the Medical Practitioner is NOT guilty of a criminal offence.

          The Canadian Medical Association requested that the above protection be afforded to all Medical Practitioners, but further agreed that such decisions should be on a VERY rare basis only, as they acknowledge that Impaired driving is a SERIOUS offence.

          I had a Head Nurse at a hospital try to block a Medical Practitioner from taking such samples in one incident in 1986 where the driver/lone occupant of the lone-involved vehicle rolled his truck and was nearly killed about 10:00 that day. The Medical Practitioner did draw the sample, the analysis did prove impairment and the driver was convicted. The Nurse was not charged, as it was her husband that was the "client", so we just chalked it up to her temporary insanity and being a full-time -itch!
          #32936 - Royal Canadian Mounted Police - 1975-10-27 / 2010-12-29
          Proud Dad of #54266 - RCMP - 2007-02-12 to date
          RCMP Veterans Association - Regina Division member
          Mounted Police Professional Association of Canada - Associate (Retired) member
          "Smile" - no!

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          • #20
            Originally posted by ateamer View Post
            And like pretty much everyone with a suspended license, he will drive, go to jail again and get to see his car go to car jail for 30 days. Then he gets to find out that the impound yard will charge him about $75-150 for the tow, and $25-50 per day for storage. And of course, he will drive suspended again.
            You left this out:
            He has to get a "Release" from the Agency who impounded the car. A Release is only given to LICENSED DRIVERS.
            At the Tow Yard, there has to be TWO LICENSED DRIVERS appear to reclaim the car--One to drive the car arriving at the Yard, and one to drive the impounded car, after the Release is tendered to the Tow Yard manager.

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            • #21
              Oh, they always find a car to drive. The 30-day impound often winds up essentially being a forfeiture to the tow yard.
              Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. - Ronald Reagan

              I don't think It'll happen in the US because we don't trust our government. We are a country of skeptics, raised by skeptics, founded by skeptics. - Amaroq

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              • #22
                Yep...they always end up finding a car to drive. They even drive suspended to their court ordered MADD meetings. We just impounded 58 cars in a 3 hour period at the courthouse for suspended/unlicensed drivers. Many of those cars will never be picked up and the tow company will lien sale them.

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                • #23
                  1 - I'd never heard of a mandatory blood draw policy after crashes. That's horrible, I really hate needles and wanted to die the one time I had to have blood drawn. Hopefully no crashes for me.

                  2 - I think it's unfair of Law Enforcement to rely on hospitals to draw the blood for DUI testing. It's not the hospital's job, they are there to heal people. If Law Enforcement needs trained medical personnel for blood tests, maybe they should hire some trained medical personnel.

                  Originally posted by xdrcx
                  I love the fact that I don't have to deal with the hospital, just call the watch commander to send the department phlebotomist to whatever hospital i am at with the suspect
                  See? This guy's department has the right idea.

                  3 - Out of curiosity, who pays for the blood draw? I do believe that I would get charged a lot of money to go to the hospital and get blood drawn. Does the government pay the hospital for the work or do they expect it for free?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by CommonGoal View Post
                    ON BLOOD-ALCOHOL TESTING
                    AS I SEE IT |
                    Hospitals should aid officers in collecting evidence
                    By PHILL KLINE
                    Special to The Star

                    A woman with four DUI convictions runs a red light in Johnson County and slams into crossing traffic. The accident injures a 16-year-old and his grandmother, who suffer life-threatening injuries. It is unclear whether they will live.

                    The woman, with two children in the car, has the smell of alcohol on her breath and slurred speech. She and her children suffer minor injuries.

                    The responding officer requests a blood draw from the woman, suspecting she has engaged in her fifth DUI. She refuses.

                    The on-duty assistant district attorney is called and informs the medical personnel of Kansas law: An officer has probable cause to conduct a blood-alcohol test in any accident with severe injuries or death, even without a court order and without the suspect’s consent.

                    The hospital still refuses to draw the blood, citing “privacy concerns” for the suspect.

                    Privacy laws under Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, HIPAA, include specific law-enforcement exceptions, allowing hospitals to assist law enforcement in evidence collection.

                    In addition, Kansas law states that only qualified medical personnel may draw blood from a DUI suspect, and that a police officer may direct medical personnel to do so without the driver’s consent in any traffic accident where death or serious injury occurs.

                    Because blood testing must occur within two hours of the accident, and because police officers must rely on hospital workers to withdraw the blood, it is vital that hospitals understand the law if we are to effectively prosecute drunken drivers in Kansas.

                    In the above case, thanks to the insistence by the district attorney’s office that the hospital follow the law, the evidence was secured and the drunk driver pleaded guilty without an expensive trial to her fifth DUI . The victims survived but with permanent injuries.



                    This is nuts, why would a hospital refuse to help LE putting a scumbag drunk driver in jail?
                    My first thought is "Lowly policeman can't tell me what my job is, I most certainly will not release information of a patient to the police because of HIPAA". Welllllllll perhaps you should read HIPAA first then make that decision.
                    Sometimes, doing the right thing means p***ing off the bosses.

                    "And shepherds we shall be, for thee my lord for thee."

                    Originally posted by dontknowwhy
                    I still think troopers and deputies who work in the middle of no where with essentially no back up are the 'men among men' of the LEO world.
                    Originally posted by weinerdog2000
                    as far as your social experiment, if we cant film you then you cant film us, we will arrest you for obstruction of our freedom.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Fëanor View Post
                      1 - I'd never heard of a mandatory blood draw policy after crashes. That's horrible, I really hate needles and wanted to die the one time I had to have blood drawn. Hopefully no crashes for me.

                      2 - I think it's unfair of Law Enforcement to rely on hospitals to draw the blood for DUI testing. It's not the hospital's job, they are there to heal people. If Law Enforcement needs trained medical personnel for blood tests, maybe they should hire some trained medical personnel.

                      See? This guy's department has the right idea.

                      3 - Out of curiosity, who pays for the blood draw? I do believe that I would get charged a lot of money to go to the hospital and get blood drawn. Does the government pay the hospital for the work or do they expect it for free?
                      That's all well and good for some depts that can afford that but remember the average sized dept in the US is something under 20 for sworn officers. I'm not sure how many of your depts could afford to have something like that.

                      Hospitals also generally like to see leo's come in the door because if they help us then we'll be more than willing to help them when crazy man needs to leave.
                      Sometimes, doing the right thing means p***ing off the bosses.

                      "And shepherds we shall be, for thee my lord for thee."

                      Originally posted by dontknowwhy
                      I still think troopers and deputies who work in the middle of no where with essentially no back up are the 'men among men' of the LEO world.
                      Originally posted by weinerdog2000
                      as far as your social experiment, if we cant film you then you cant film us, we will arrest you for obstruction of our freedom.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Fëanor View Post
                        1 - I'd never heard of a mandatory blood draw policy after crashes. That's horrible, I really hate needles and wanted to die the one time I had to have blood drawn. Hopefully no crashes for me.
                        If you're involved in an accident with a fatality or serious bodily harm in Nevada, you'll give THREE blood specimens, 30 minutes apart, to be able to extrapolate the BAC at the time of the crash. If you don't give the specimens voluntarily, Igor the Salivating Deputy or someone like him will be summoned to persuade you. He lives for these moments, by the way.

                        I was involved in a patrol car crash, and I had to give the three blood draws. I wasn't terribly concerned that they would reveal anything incriminating, but if I had refused, the relationship between me and Igor would have taken an ugly turn.

                        Originally posted by Fëanor View Post
                        2 - I think it's unfair of Law Enforcement to rely on hospitals to draw the blood for DUI testing. It's not the hospital's job, they are there to heal people. If Law Enforcement needs trained medical personnel for blood tests, maybe they should hire some trained medical personnel.
                        Most of the "trained medical personnel" work at the hospital, especially in rural environments. It's not uncommon for people involved in accidents to need treatment at the hospital, so everyone necessary is there anyway. Many states have special exemption statutes that provide civil and criminal immunity to any medical professional who obtains evidence from a person at the direction of a police officer, and in some cases, it is a criminal offense in itself to refuse to obtain the evidence.

                        I can't recall a situation where I had to get blood drawn at the hospital and the hospital wasn't having it drawn for their own treatment plan, anyway. The treating physician has at least as much interest in knowing what substances their patient has on board, and they're frequently getting blood for other tests, such as blood gases, CBCs, chem panels, etc. When the lab tech came to draw the blood for the hospital, they used mercuric chloride instead of alcohol to swab the skin, then drew a couple of extra tubes and handed them to me, all with one "stick." This took about fifteen seconds extra. I marked the tubes and processed them into evidence for analysis in our forensic lab. The procedure was no more painful than what the hospital had to do, cost close to nothing, and didn't compromise care. Once I had my blood, the hospital was free to do whatever they thought necessary for patient care. I just waited for them to be done or went on my way and got an arrest warrant for the offender to be served when they were released.

                        Originally posted by Fëanor View Post
                        3 - Out of curiosity, who pays for the blood draw? I do believe that I would get charged a lot of money to go to the hospital and get blood drawn. Does the government pay the hospital for the work or do they expect it for free?
                        Hospitals gleefully bill local governments for any costs incurred, and they do it at book rates, not the discounted rates they give health insurance companies.

                        The agencies where I worked had a contract with the local medical lab. They kept a phlebotomist on call via a pager. If we needed blood drawn, the phlebotomist was summoned to meet us wherever, usually at the jail. They would draw the blood and hand it directly to the officer for processing into an evidence refrigerator. The phlebotomist got $25 every time the pager went off (this was in the late 80s and early 90s), and they usually like the cash. If the arrest resulted in a conviction, the cost of the phlebotomist and the lab analysis were assessed on the offender. If the offender was acquitted, the agency ate the costs. The number of times the latter happened was negligible, as blood was about the best evidence you could have for proving drug or alcohol intoxication.
                        Tim Dees, now writing as a plain old forum member, his superpowers lost to an encounter with gold kryptonite.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by j706 View Post
                          Those of you who have blood draw policy's, How much force can you use do conduct the draw on a refusal? Also on a refusal do you have to obtain a warrant? If so whats your success rate on getting one?
                          If they refuse it's like SABRE said, we call the on call pros. swear it out and then it's on. If we have to have 5-6 or how many ever people we need we get blood. In the time I've been there it's a 100% success rate. If the guys lucky the only other charge he'll get is R&O. Not to mention the automatic suspension(1 yr) for refusal.
                          "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything!"-Wyatt Earp

                          "You never know when crazy will show up!"-Irishdep

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