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  • Failure Drill Changed?

    Old Failure Drill, 2 shots to the chest, one shot to the cranium. Been that way as long as I can think of the term, and the process being in existence.

    However, buddy of mine just got done with Basic in the Marine Corps. and even though he was assigned a Squad Automatic Weapon for the majority of his time on the range, he stated to us that the failure drill had changed; It is now Two Shots to the Chest, and 1 Shot to the Groin. Marines changed it to keep the focus always at a greater area of mass appearantly.

    Now I'm curious (hence the cat avatar, know my curiosity will bite me on the bum one day) would this be a good change for law enforcement as well, since in California according to a pal who graduated from the AHC Academy, folks are trained to Shoot in 3 burst volley's. But he didn't go on in detail about it, probably since I was more concerned with asking him about the PT stuff.

    Cars, Bookwork, and Shooting, are pretty much no brainers for me. Getting prepared for the physical beat down, thats a priority, but this technicality from the marine corps, has been on my mind, especially with my Criminal Investigations paper being a Dynamic Study of Terminal Ballistics (Tungsten is Cool).

    Would this set up 2-Chest 1-Groin be preferable to the 2-Chest 1-Head for LEO's. Seriously since the head is a tiny little target especially when its moving, and the groin area has some serious destruction possibilities Femoral Arterty (sp?) anyone?
    The right man in the wrong place, can make all the difference.

  • #2
    The head , the nads, either way you have a good chance of stopping the threat and on a guy you double the chance of hitting him in the brain.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything!"-Wyatt Earp

    "You never know when crazy will show up!"-Irishdep

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    • #3
      Double post, see below.
      Last edited by TX Heat; 04-16-2007, 12:46 PM.

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      • #4
        I wouldn't say it's changed but this a second option. Sometimes head shots may not be available or too difficult with a handgun.
        Breaking down the pelvic girdle that supports the body puts the bad guy on the ground pretty fast. Down doesn't mean out, but immobilizing a shooter usually makes it easier to end the fight.
        From a military standpoint, it takes more of the enemies resources to treat a wounded soldier than replace a dead one in the field so that may factor into the military mindset.

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        • #5
          Maybe it's different for SWAT (or whatever it's called in your part of town), but during the academy we were never taught any specific number of shots (keep goin til the threat is gone, rather it be 1 shot or all 3 magazines), and if we were caught going for a headshot we got a little bit of a talking to. Always center mass.

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          • #6
            Failure Drill

            At the time I retired, we were still pretty much doing "double tap". Okay, big difference between the range and a firefight. In the latter, you do whatever it takes. Center mass is still going to be the bigger and better target, object being to put the active shooter out of the fight.

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            • #7
              Edit: Never mind.
              It takes a Wolf.......

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              • #8
                It's two to the chest and one to the head or the groin in boot camp. I graduated Marine basic about 6 months ago.

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                • #9
                  Everything that I have ever been told is shoot until threat is neutralized

                  Now, if I am being threatened by someone on PCP, 2-3 in chest and then start popping off at the pelvic region. It doesn't matter how high they are, if you take out the hips they cannot get to you.

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                  • #10
                    Chest for closest mass of vital organs and head for chance at instant nervous system destruction. The groin area would be a little redundant don't you think?

                    I wonder though about that. What about the "push down" problem some shooters have? If a person is in a high stress situation and revert to pushing down their shots, would the head not prove a better target? I mean depending on how far the shooter pushes down, the bullet may hit center mass OR groin.
                    -I don't feel you honor someone by creating a physical gesture (the salute). You honor them by holding them in memory and, in law enforcement, proceeding in vigilant, ethical police work. You honor this country or deceased soldiers or whatever you're honoring when you salute a flag by thinking, feeling, and continuing a life of freedom.

                    --ArkansasRed24

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                    • #11
                      I heard this also in the Academy - from the instructor of the First Aid class. Apparently the quickest way to bleed someone out and sever nerves/break bones to prevent walking, not to mention the psychological impact of having your wang winged.
                      If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.

                      ---Jack Handey

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                      • #12
                        We're trained to shoot into the HIP, not the groin., when the head is obscured.
                        I am concerned for the security of our great Nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within.

                        Douglas MacArthur

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                        • #13
                          We have talked about this issue at training as well, Shoot until the threat is gone. Head shots generally hard for most shooters, pelvic gurdle area what have you, the idea behind the "failure drill" may be better described as body armor drill. The idea is that you put two rounds in to the chest, bad guy is still up he/she may be wearing body armor try for a hit where body armor may not be, ie the head or pelvis.
                          Happy to be here proud to serve

                          "Well it appears this lock does not accept american express."

                          Never trust fire fighters to point out a suspect.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Enikad
                            Old Failure Drill, 2 shots to the chest, one shot to the cranium. Been that way as long as I can think of the term, and the process being in existence.

                            However, buddy of mine just got done with Basic in the Marine Corps. and even though he was assigned a Squad Automatic Weapon for the majority of his time on the range, he stated to us that the failure drill had changed; It is now Two Shots to the Chest, and 1 Shot to the Groin. Marines changed it to keep the focus always at a greater area of mass appearantly.

                            Now I'm curious (hence the cat avatar, know my curiosity will bite me on the bum one day) would this be a good change for law enforcement as well, since in California according to a pal who graduated from the AHC Academy, folks are trained to Shoot in 3 burst volley's. But he didn't go on in detail about it, probably since I was more concerned with asking him about the PT stuff.

                            Cars, Bookwork, and Shooting, are pretty much no brainers for me. Getting prepared for the physical beat down, thats a priority, but this technicality from the marine corps, has been on my mind, especially with my Criminal Investigations paper being a Dynamic Study of Terminal Ballistics (Tungsten is Cool).

                            Would this set up 2-Chest 1-Groin be preferable to the 2-Chest 1-Head for LEO's. Seriously since the head is a tiny little target especially when its moving, and the groin area has some serious destruction possibilities Femoral Arterty (sp?) anyone?
                            Straight out of Gunsite,Taking the fight out of the bad guy.
                            #1
                            Two to the chest (the engine) followed by an assesment to see if a head shot is available
                            #2
                            If #1 does not solve your probelm, a head shot (the computer)
                            #3
                            If that dont work and the bad guy is STILL coming, two shots to the pelvis (the mobility)

                            Repeat if Ness.
                            When your fun ends, my fun begins

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The shot is less a groin shot as a hip shot. You've got all kinds of heavy duty blood piping there, plus you've got the added benefit of seriously disabling the BG's ability to keep mobile. Its not the best option, but it is a viable option should the upper hydraulics or head not work.
                              Originally posted by kontemplerande
                              Without Germany, you would not have won World War 2.

                              Comment

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