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  • Family Protection: What if...?

    This is an actual question that I have wondered about. Basically I just want to know the ramifications of an action in the following situation:

    There was a crime committed here recently (for those of you in AZ, it was detailed in yesterdays Republic, page A3 or 13, I don't recall which, on the basline rapist) where a woman was forced to drive her car, while the man in the back seat was raping her daughter. I don't recall if it was the woman, or the daughter that was held at gunpoint during this.

    If that were to happen to me, either that SoB or I is going to be leaving in a long wooden box. Would I actually be arrested for putting a bullet in the head of someone who is AT THAT MOMENT raping my daughter/wife? And if I was arrested, would any jury in the world actually convict a father of killing his childs assailant?

    This is an actual question I have, if someone could shed light on it. I know you can use lethal force to defend YOURSELF if you feel that your life is in jeopardy, but what about defending others in a case where their life may, or may not be in jeopardy?

  • #2
    Originally posted by MesaHopeful
    This is an actual question that I have wondered about. Basically I just want to know the ramifications of an action in the following situation:

    There was a crime committed here recently (for those of you in AZ, it was detailed in yesterdays Republic, page A3 or 13, I don't recall which, on the basline rapist) where a woman was forced to drive her car, while the man in the back seat was raping her daughter. I don't recall if it was the woman, or the daughter that was held at gunpoint during this.

    If that were to happen to me, either that SoB or I is going to be leaving in a long wooden box. Would I actually be arrested for putting a bullet in the head of someone who is AT THAT MOMENT raping my daughter/wife? And if I was arrested, would any jury in the world actually convict a father of killing his childs assailant?

    This is an actual question I have, if someone could shed light on it. I know you can use lethal force to defend YOURSELF if you feel that your life is in jeopardy, but what about defending others in a case where their life may, or may not be in jeopardy?

    Here in NY state, here's the statute:

    § 35.15 Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person.
    1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subdivision two, use
    physical force upon another person when and to the extent he or she
    reasonably believes such to be necessary to defend himself, herself or a
    third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or
    imminent use of unlawful physical force by such other person, unless:
    (a) ........
    (b) ........
    (c) .........
    2. A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person
    under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:

    (a) ......
    (i) ....
    (ii) ........
    (b) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing
    or attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible criminal
    sexual act or robbery; or

    (c) .........

    Comment


    • #3
      Good to know. If the law states that in NY, good chance that their more lenient here on it in a red state. Thanks Raiden.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by MesaHopeful
        Would I actually be arrested for putting a bullet in the head of someone who is AT THAT MOMENT raping my daughter/wife?
        Maybe. Depends on your district attorney's mood at the time.


        Originally posted by MesaHopeful
        And if I was arrested, would any jury in the world actually convict a father of killing his childs assailant?
        A real big NO.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by MesaHopeful
          This is an actual question that I have wondered about. Basically I just want to know the ramifications of an action in the following situation:

          There was a crime committed here recently (for those of you in AZ, it was detailed in yesterdays Republic, page A3 or 13, I don't recall which, on the basline rapist) where a woman was forced to drive her car, while the man in the back seat was raping her daughter. I don't recall if it was the woman, or the daughter that was held at gunpoint during this.

          If that were to happen to me, either that SoB or I is going to be leaving in a long wooden box. Would I actually be arrested for putting a bullet in the head of someone who is AT THAT MOMENT raping my daughter/wife? And if I was arrested, would any jury in the world actually convict a father of killing his childs assailant?

          This is an actual question I have, if someone could shed light on it. I know you can use lethal force to defend YOURSELF if you feel that your life is in jeopardy, but what about defending others in a case where their life may, or may not be in jeopardy?
          Justifiable Use of Force

          776.012 Use of force in defense of person.--A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

          (1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

          (2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.



          776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.--

          (1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

          (a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and

          (b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

          (2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:

          (a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or

          (b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or

          (c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or

          (d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.

          (3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

          (4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person's dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.

          (5) As used in this section, the term:

          (a) "Dwelling" means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.

          (b) "Residence" means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.

          (c) "Vehicle" means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.



          So that would pretty much clinch the deal for the assailant in Florida!!
          (based on your scenario)

          Funny, I just finished a Child Sexual Assault and Abuse seminar this week... My response to the instructor when asked for personal opinion was "you really don't want to know my thoughts on these guys!". Really unbelievable to hear the cockiness some of these POS's have about this type of behavior - not just with children either - mind you!!

          I hate these cases, but then these are also the ones that I will work with a vengeance to insure it is done right, complete, and with 100% conviction. (though I guess I do this on everything, except probably non-violent misdemeanors - OK, now fry me!!)

          Comment


          • #6
            Hmm, this is a difficult one, in a lot of places, rape does not justify murder. Self defense is to yourself or someone else in immediately danger of losing life or limb. If i see you about to bash someone on the head with a steel pipe, I could shoot you technically. If you were to do the same to me with a steel pipe, you could also be shot. Seing the third party be raped...I dont know on that one. And to answer your second question....if you break the law then you break the law. Possibly a temporary insanity plea...but the law sticks regardless...sorry
            "If guns are outlawed...then only outlaws will have guns!"

            Comment


            • #7
              I just hope we can catch this worthless SoB soon. Part of me hopes he tries to resist, or lock himself in a building... Then he can meet the Mesa/Phoenix SWAT units. I'm sure they'd have lots to talk about

              Thanks again for all the info everyone

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by badge1024
                Hmm, this is a difficult one, in a lot of places, rape does not justify murder. Self defense is to yourself or someone else in immediately danger of losing life or limb. If i see you about to bash someone on the head with a steel pipe, I could shoot you technically. If you were to do the same to me with a steel pipe, you could also be shot. Seing the third party be raped...I dont know on that one. And to answer your second question....if you break the law then you break the law. Possibly a temporary insanity plea...but the law sticks regardless...sorry
                Hi Badge,

                In most cases the statute says it all. At least with NY state it clearly states it, forcible rape and or it involves a child.

                Otherwise, in cases like stated above, you must use the reasonable(non deadly) or retreat if there is not other avenue. Remember his question, if I am not mistaken, revolves a civilian, not an LEO; at least with the scenario you have gave above.
                Last edited by Raiden; 08-18-2006, 04:21 PM. Reason: edited last sentence

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by badge1024
                  Hmm, this is a difficult one, in a lot of places, rape does not justify murder. Self defense is to yourself or someone else in immediately danger of losing life or limb. If i see you about to bash someone on the head with a steel pipe, I could shoot you technically. If you were to do the same to me with a steel pipe, you could also be shot. Seing the third party be raped...I dont know on that one. And to answer your second question....if you break the law then you break the law. Possibly a temporary insanity plea...but the law sticks regardless...sorry
                  I'm going to disagree with you on this one.

                  When it comes to what grave bodily harm is, rape qualifies. See: ''Great bodily harm'' encompasses the threat of sexual assault. State v. Havican, 213 Conn. 602.

                  Check IL's criminal jury instructions or cases for clarification of this issue.

                  In addition, the statutes you all cite are no doubt correct; however, they do not always tell you how they are employed. Finding case law on the subject from your own respective states will give you a better feel for how the court applies and defines terms and laws.

                  It very well may be that in one state rape is not, in fact, treated as "grave bodily harm" and is not considered a justification for lethal force...but I do not think that likely.

                  If you assailent is trying to go "below the belt" put him 6 feet under.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MesaHopeful
                    This is an actual question that I have wondered about. Basically I just want to know the ramifications of an action in the following situation:

                    There was a crime committed here recently (for those of you in AZ, it was detailed in yesterdays Republic, page A3 or 13, I don't recall which, on the basline rapist) where a woman was forced to drive her car, while the man in the back seat was raping her daughter. I don't recall if it was the woman, or the daughter that was held at gunpoint during this.

                    If that were to happen to me, either that SoB or I is going to be leaving in a long wooden box. Would I actually be arrested for putting a bullet in the head of someone who is AT THAT MOMENT raping my daughter/wife? And if I was arrested, would any jury in the world actually convict a father of killing his childs assailant?

                    This is an actual question I have, if someone could shed light on it. I know you can use lethal force to defend YOURSELF if you feel that your life is in jeopardy, but what about defending others in a case where their life may, or may not be in jeopardy?

                    Obviously, you're not a parent yet. In my mind, it wouldn't matter what the law said...they could fry my ***** and I wouldn't care. If any man raped my daughter, and I had a weapon, I'd put a bullet through the SOB's head and never bat an eye. They could arrest my ***** and lock me up for the rest of my natural life, and it would be worth it. They could sentence me to death, and I'd accept it without fighting...but I would NEVER stand by and allow anyone to do that to my child, and do nothing. Most parent's would die to protect their children and never regret that decision....this is no different...just a prolonged death. So, for me, it wouldn't matter what the law said...I guess.
                    http://z4.invisionfree.com/crimescen...UserCP&CODE=22

                    " From the hottest fire, the strongest steel is born. Dance not with the Phoenix, lest she burn you to the quick in an instant, yet none more desireable, both beautiful and terrible." ~~~ thx armoredman


                    http://www.authorsden.com/plreedwallinger
                    www.rainbooks.com
                    www.reedwriting.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I think he also mentioned the suspect was armed, so still justifiable.
                      Molly Weasley makes Chuck Norris eat his vegetables.

                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        YES, in AZ you CAN use deadly physical force to stop sexual misconduct with a minor, rape, and sexual molestation of a child, so the mother would have been justified THREE time under AZ Title 13. I wish she had taken advantage of our shall issue CCW laws, and killed this scumbag.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Mesa,

                          I think you are in Arizona. If so, take a look at Sections 13-404 through 13-406 of the Arizona Criminal Code. They should answer your questions.

                          http://www.azleg.state.az.us/Arizona...s.asp?Title=13
                          Going too far is half the pleasure of not getting anywhere

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I'm not aware of any state that does not allow for the use of deadly force to prevent kidnapping, rape, murder, or aggravated battery (or assault depending on your state). Most of the nation's statutes were written along the lines of the Model Penal Code that was drawn up in the '70's and that was one of the suggested laws. I can't say that some state wouldn't be so backward and screwed up that it wouldn't allow you to kill some piece of sheet that is raping someone, especially a family member. If anyone lives in a state like that, I suggest quickly packing up your things and moving somewhere else. If you can't lawfiully protect your family from something like that, nobody is safe.
                            God made cops so firemen would have heroes.

                            You do not greet Death; you punch him in the throat repeatedly as he drags you away.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MesaHopeful
                              If that were to happen to me, either that SoB or I is going to be leaving in a long wooden box. Would I actually be arrested for putting a bullet in the head of someone who is AT THAT MOMENT raping my daughter/wife?

                              You're kidding right?

                              If that were to actually happen and you had the means and ability to stop it and didn't you need to put the bullet in your own head.

                              Who cares what the jury thinks.
                              "Why is common sense so rare?" - Me

                              By the way.. They aren't "Clients" or "Customers" they're CRIMINALS... sheesh

                              Comment

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