fighting dogs & pepper spray...

[deputy37]

Don't call the humane agent just yet... but...

I have 3 dogs. A 1/2 Vizsla (Dad is a showdog OOPS ) and 2 of her Lab mix sons. (another oops, long story ) Sons are a year and a half, neutered only fairly recently due to another long story.

ANYWAY... about 3 months ago brothers decided they wanted to KILL each other. At first, only occasionally, then it started getting more often. To the point where I had to keep them totally separated. They've since both been neutered, but it takes 6 weeks or so for that to really set in so that their brains aren't pickled in testosterone any more. The night before one of the snip-snips, they got into a fight, I separated them, and got bit in the upper arm. I had to qualify three days later. OUCH.

At any rate. I'm at a loss as to how to stop the fights. They are calm, placid, fairly big (70lb or so) kind dogs. But, when they fight it's all I can do to SEPARATE them, not to mention do the alpha-dog-shake-roll etc. thing to convince them that MY wrath is far worse than either of their own.

So. It occurs to me. I have this can o'whoop*** I carry around. Stream OC. I'm thinking... fight... spray... fight is broken up. Maybe even will think twice about fighting again. Will hurt, is cruel, but, OTOH, so is a ripped out eye or ear, which is where they're headed. It's about the *only* idea I've come up with, and want to run it by the vet if it doesn't sound too insane...

Don't tell me to choose between the two of them and give one up. Malarkey didn't want to be born and I brought him to life. Eamon was in ICU with parvo for 3 days as a 4 month old. That is Solomon's choice (or Sophie's, I guess) and I just can't make it yet...

FWIW, they are crate trained, have most basic obedience, but I live on a farm, so not as much on leash work as some dogs. They have great house manners, get plenty of excercise, great quality chicken & rice food with no additives... yadda yadda. I've worked for both a top-notch K-9 trainer and a vet, know just enough to be dangerous.

Has anyone dealt with fighting dogs and how did you handle it?

[MadMax]

They might fight with more intensity, with the added pain. Are they drawing blood? I had an Amstaff (Brutus) that used to fight with my wifes Border Collie. It was more bark then bite, sounded terrible, lots of drool but no blood.
Brutus was a good dog until he tried to eat a young steer that we had at the time. He chewed off the ears and was working on the neck when I found them. The poor steer was still alive.
Well anyway poor Brutus met the Mini-14 that day.

Good luck

[Oink]

Hmmm...
Yes it's cruel but if it comes down to the difference of them maiming each other permanently or getting a dose of wwooopa***$$, They'll survive the OC, They may not survive each other...
Though I suggest, have some decontaminationspray handy, They may object to having their heads dunked in water for an hour or so....

[deputy37]

they *have* drawn blood a couple of times. Of course, one time they fought when I wasn't home (weren't crated for some reason or another) and were separated and fine by the time I got there... just had blood spattered everywhere...

And I know there's the chance it'll make 'em fight harder. Although a cold hose worked very well one time to break them apart. Of course, I was also breaking them apart and the dual recipient of said cold hose... One of my students did the hosing, I must say I'm pretty sure he enjoyed it...

...sigh... it's SO frustrating. These are as close to family or significant others as I have. No, I'm not socially maladjusted, it's just the reality of farm life AND working in LE. These are GREAT dogs if I could just get them to get along.

My mom had brain surgery for an anuerism, and while it isn't an excuse, it's a pretty damn good explanation of why the snipping didn't happen sooner, which *might* have cut this all off at the pass... (sorry, pun duly noted... and in very poor taste, but making me laugh anyway )

The good part about if I go the OC route is there's a coupla feet of snow out there. I'm guessing if I let them out, they'll roll and roll and roll and deconaminate pretty well... But, a couple of big cans of decon spray would be the humane and smart thing to do... why didn't I think of that???

[huff317]

I actually use a low powered BB gun (Daisy) to control the barking/fighting and they have since learned that when Daddy say "Out", they stop everything. For the neighbor's LOUD dog, I use a peanut butter (big glop) sandwich-shuts him up for hours.

Out

[kirch]

This reminded me of something I heard on the radio.

On Saturdays, I ofen listen to Patricia McConnel's call-in show "Calling All Pets" on public radio. She's an animal behaviorist, a professor in the local university's vet school, has written several books on dog training, runs a successful dog training and consulting business AND happens to live only a few miles from me. So I tend to take her word on these things.

On several occasions, the issue of shock collars has come up on her show. Though she's generally opposed to their use (feeling that there are other conditioning techniques that can be just as effective without the use of pain), she has said that using them to prevent a great danger is understandable. For example, if your dog likes to run out of your yard and you're near a busy street, the use of pain to keep the dog out of traffic is acceptable.

I see you in a similar situation. Sure, using OC is going to cause a lot of pain to your dogs. But you're preventing them from greater harm by doing so. And it shouldn't take the dogs too long to associate fighting with incredible pain.

[SGT Dave]

I have used OC twice on dogs and was NOT IMPRESSED with it's ability.

Maybe dogs are different, but NEITHER time got the reaction ANYWHERE CLOSE to what a human would have been.

I don't count on OC working on dogs.

BTW, snakes are not impressed with it either

[huff317]

Snakes!?

[jellybean40]

I have also heard you could use vinegar in a spray bottle, and spray their face. might be something to try.

[Don]

I'd go ahead with the OC spray and see if it works. And I wouldn't be too quick to decon them. If they hurt for a little while, they will remember it better.

I'm absolutely a dog lover. And if I saw someone being cruel to one, I would take appropriate action. Have done so more than once.

IMHO, use of the OC in this instance is NOT being cruel, but preventing further injury. My ONLY concern about this would be the dogs associating the OC spray with YOU, instead of with them fighting.

Sgt. Dave, I don't know what you must have done to **** off the dogs you sprayed, but I've used OC with good effect on several different breeds, or I should say mixed breeds.

[ 12-26-2002, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: Don ]

[4n6det]

We use fire extinguishers on search warrants. Man, you never saw a dog run until you open up an extinguisher. Besides there is no pain involved, minimal clean up and doesn't contaminate your whole house with O.C.

Just an idea for ya.

[InSane1]

OC somewhat works on dogs.. Try that "bitter apple" stuff to spray in their mouth. I used a pinch collar to train my dog. I LOVED THAT THING. He listened so well on the pinch collar. and off.. (indoors). outside off the lease was different.

BUT, the trainers told me that it pinches them like their mother would to control the pups, and that it might hurt a bit, but just to get their attention. When I get a new dog, i will use a pinch collar to train it. I say get bitter apple and a pinch collar.. then shoot em with OC if they dont respond to those two things.

[Guard Dog]

I kind of side somewhat with Sgt Dave on this one. I have seen our K-9's exposed to OC and they keep chugging. I have also seen tough dogs sprayed with OC stop but then continue the charge.

I walk each morning about two or three miles.
(except the very cold cold mornings)
There is a house that their dogs have come after me. The one dog is a Samoyed (sp) and the other is a very large Chow type dog.

One morning the Samoyed charged and was about four feet away. I sprayed and missed a direct hit but enough of a mist stopped the charge. I watched the dog go to back to the pavement and sniff and then gently link the OC. The dog now torments me from about 15 feet away. I think it is afraid to get closer, but I don't think if the chips were down, it would have stopped him if he was hell bent on a bite.

Just my thoughts. Unless it is used to the hot stuff. Seriously...the owners are Mexican. I know that OC won't work on some Cajuns that are eating the hot sauce all the time.

I did use OC about 10 years ago on a mixed breed Dob/Shepherd that had me cornered in a garage. When I sprayed it with a direct hit, it ran away yelping.

One last thing. I had a Female Rotty that was the friendliest dog in the world. She loved everyone and thought people were made for scratching ears. Hell she even jumped in the UPS truck wantying to go for a ride. Anyway she was laying in the shade keeping cool one summer when the meter reader came by and tripped over her. She got up, he got afraid and sprayed her before waiting to see if she was aggressive. After that she had to be brought into the house when the meter reader showed up. She hated that car and the meter reader. Anyone else was OK, but she knew that particular person.

[LeeRoy]

I say hose em down with the pepper. The first time you have to use it you'll know if it's effective enough. I've peppered dogs and watched our animal control officers pepper plenty of dogs on searches. It has worked fine.

All you want to do is get the dogs' attention and comprehend your presence (when they fight they get tunnel vision just like people). The OC will get their attention and they'll figure out Dad is there telling them to knock it off. After one or two applications they'll start complying when they see the can come out.

Best of luck.

[Don]

Insane, should you and I ever come face to face, be prepaired to wear a pinch collar. Hope you enjoy it.