Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What do you guys think about this post? (SWAT related)

Collapse

300x250 Mobile

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • What do you guys think about this post? (SWAT related)

    This is from another board:

    After yesterday I have realized that SWAT teams are nothing more than the bully in grade school. When they are breaking down doors at 4 a.m. and attacking sleeping people they strut around like the baddest of the bad. I personally enjoy watching police shows, and am always BLOWN AWAY by the weapons those bastards have! I've seen Steyr Aug's, HK MP5K's, G36K's, etc. Those guys have the finest weapons, tons of training, and the public sees them as superheroes.
    I see them as ***** *** bitches.

    Whenever they do something right, they can't stop talking about themselves. Whenever they break down the door of a drug dealers house (when they get the address right) and drag the confused and sleepy man into the street you see them parading around like peacocks giving each other high-fives. But whenever they are actually faced with danger. When they find themselves in a situation where they know someone is armed, and where they know they have to face a criminal who is awake and ready they are the biggest pussies ever!

    I can understand their fear. They are asked to go into a hot situation. We ask them to go into a building they've never seen before and we ask them to engage an unknown and hostile foe. I can understand their desire to be home with their families, their fear of the unknown. But to wait outside the factory yesterday in Idaho while victims are bleeding to death so they can chat on the phone with an employee FOR HOURS is UNACCEPTABLE!!

    I watched a spokesperson of the department describe their actions, and he admitted that they spent an hour or two (After they got to the scene) deciding the best route into the building. Let's pretend they only spent one hour outside. Think about how ****ing long an hour is! In one hour I can watch an entire episode of Junkyard wars from start to end. In one hour I can sit through a class at college (that seems like for ****ing ever). One hour can make the difference between life and death.

    Do you remember William Sanders?

    He was the school teacher at Columbine High School who bled to death as the SWAT team sat around for HOURS. The police set up a perimeter and talked to the frightened and dying people inside the high school for hours and hours AFTER the shooting had stopped. AFTER Harris and Klebold had taken their own lives. William Sanders lay in a pool of his own blood for hours while the children hiding with him tried to get the attention of the police with signs in the windows pleading for help. After the SWAT team members somehow mustered the courage from their tiny tiny balls to go into the school to face the awesomely armed and highly trained shooters (two shotguns, a Mac 10 which jammed every few shots, and a Hi-point carbine which also jammed very often), they slowly crept through the building undoubtedly soiling themselves every few steps. (There were multiple unfired rounds littering the floor of the school along with the spent casings. This suggests that the guns that were used jammed very often and had to be cleared every few shots)

    Anyways, although the SWAT teams told reporters that they were "outgunned" by the two shooters they mustered their courage and clutched their worthless little HKMP5's and AR-15's and VERY slowly walked through the building treating each student as a threat. All students were treated as a possible suspect, which is understandable. What is not understandable is how the SWAT team treated the students around Mr. William Sanders. The students caring for Mr. Sanders were rushed out of their hiding place, and although they begged the police men to allow them to pull Mr. Sanders to safety, they were refused. It was a matter of hours before they finally treated Mr. Sanders (unsuccessfully) for his wounds. Unfortunatelly he died from his wounds HOURS AND HOURS after Harris and Klebold had killed themselves.

    In yesterday's shootings, the cops acted with equal ineptitude in what appears to be SOP (Standard Operating Procedure). While it makes sense to secure a perimeter around the site of the crime, it is insane to me at how long it takes these men to go inside. I watched footage of 7 or 8 SWAT members walking in a line towards the building with their weapons out. They rode around in their ARMORED CAR for a while trying to look inside, and figure out what to do. They talked on the phone to a hiding employee for hours, and finally just went inside to find that the shoter had been dead the whole damn time. The worst part of it all is that the police were informed that the man was going to be coming to kill the employees, but they refused to do anything about it. I guess they are just around to clean up the dead. (and to wait for the wounded to bleed to death)

    While some of you may berate me for second guessing these professionals, i am really fed up with their antics. This is what they are trained to do! They were formed in a reaction to the shooting in Texas (I think it was Texas) where that guy in the bell tower was blasting people and the cops were underarmed. I see these police with better guns than much of our military uses, and I always hear about their extensive training and courage, but I swear they seem like the biggest *******.

    Perhaps they have to think about liabilities involved if they make mistakes, but i think it's a bigger mistake to take HOURS to enter a building. If that is SOP, then I believe it should be changed. If I was laying on the ground in that factory yesterday....... feeling the life slip from my body...... getting colder and colder..... watching the armored car drive by the windows....... watching the SWAT team cowering behind their police cruisers.....

    Well whatever..... it hasn't changed since Columbine, and i'm thinking it won't change after yesterday. We can put the biggest guns in their hands, we can put them in armored vehicles, we can put our lives in their hands, but we can't put balls in their pants.

    Shawn

    I edited this to delete a term relating to a part of the female anatomy!

    [ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: SpecOpsWarrior ]
    hklover

  • #2
    TROLL alert.

    Comment


    • #3
      Troll? I just was curious if any officers or anyone else here felt similar. I can see where the author of that post has a point. If the mods consider this some kind of "troll" post then just delete it. Thanks for the input guy.
      hklover

      Comment


      • #4
        SWAT teams have a very dangerous job. They have to watchout for their lives and others plus dodge bullets. They have families to go home to also.
        You put SWAT down but you would be the first one to expect them to put their lives on the line for you. I looked at your profile. Interesting that the "picture" of you was of a SWAT team member. I suspect a wanna be who washed out.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Mitzi:
          SWAT teams have a very dangerous job. They have to watchout for their lives and others plus dodge bullets. They have families to go home to also.
          You put SWAT down but you would be the first one to expect them to put their lives on the line for you. I looked at your profile. Interesting that the "picture" of you was of a SWAT team member. I suspect a wanna be who washed out.
          I didn't write the original post. I do however agree with his points - I mean, why do we pay the SWAT ? To sit around UNTIL it is safe to go in ??? Their job should be to go in and eliminate the threat after a quick assessment of the situation. In the two situational examples listed above, I believe the SWAT was a complete waste and regular patrol officers could have handled the situation.

          I've never tried out for any law enforcement job although I have thought about it. I know that I could make the SWAT if I wanted to. I don't because I already have a career at the moment. Frankly I've been debating whether to go Army and then to Ranger training - I wouldn't go SWAT.

          The picture in my profile was taken off the HK website and is related to my love for HK firearms, not SWAT.
          hklover

          Comment


          • #6
            Tell you what...since you have ZERO military or law enforcement experience, and have never been at the other end of a high powered assault rifle, your opinion means nothing to me. You claim that you could become SWAT if you wanted to...well, either put up or shut up.

            It is easy for you to sit in your lazy boy chair and second guess the work we do each day. Easy for you to tell us we take too long to solve a situation. Easy for you to make those command decisions from the comfort of your own home.

            I guess it would be much more convenient for you if we rushed right in and solved the situation. Perhaps you forget that we are the ones that hear rounds flying past us and know what will happen if we end up getting hit. Yet you label us "pussies!" Funny, I don't see you defending America's streets or fighting for our country in foreign lands.

            I have seen what an AK-47 can do to a person. No kevlar helmet, no ballistic vest can stop it. I have seen how a fellow deputy could not even put out an emergency broadcast because the rounds ripped through him so quickly. But you have the "courage" to sit at home and say we have no balls.

            Like I said before, until you have been in that situation, you have absolutely no right to voice your opinion; it is WORTHLESS to me. Perhaps you are simply bitter because you couldn't make it as a cop...who knows.

            I realize that I shouldn't get fired up over some yellow, troll, COWARD, but I felt my opinion should be known.

            [ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: team green ]

            Comment


            • #7
              Well said, team green. Like I said, he puts SWAT down but he'd be the first one to expect them to put their lives on the line for him.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by team green:
                Tell you what...since you have ZERO military or law enforcement experience, and have never been at the other end of a high powered assault rifle, your opinion means nothing to me. You claim that you could become SWAT if you wanted to...well, either put up or shut up.


                Whoever said I hadn't been in any life or death situation or at the other end of a gun? If my opinion means nothing to you why are you responding? Put up or shut up? - OK, why would I want to join an organization I thought was a waste of resources that isn't as effective as they should be?

                The simple fact is that SWAT more often than not is the "cleanup crew". They only go in after they assess that there is no danger to their people. Whats the point in that? They are getting paid to go into harms way. They are supposed to be ABOVE the average LEO and trained FOR CONFRONTATION. They enter the building after the gunman is dead and the injured are dead.

                Look at the two examples in the post above and explain to me how SWAT were the heroes.

                Man you really make yourself look pretty dumb with your post. You get all worked up but you cant make a valid point concerning the argument above. I expected reasons or realistic examples from someone experienced in SWAT that could explain why they act in this fashion most of the time.

                You think an infantry man sits around during a battle and waits for the enemy to off themselves or leave? No, they fight back in the thick of it, sometimes bordering on heroic yet suicidal actions. I'm sorry but SWAT should be in the thick of it saving lives and eliminating the threat. Sure there needs to be some preliminary surveillance, but HOURS OF IT ?!?!

                I don't feel I'm being unreasonable here.

                90% of their no-knock drug offender arrests could be solved by a patrolman grabbing the guy when he goes to the store or gets his mail.

                SWAT doesn't impress me. What'd they even do for the North Hollywood bank robbery shootout? Wasn't it a few traffic cops that finally stopped that one guy ? (I admit I'm not 100% knowledgable here but that is how I recalled it)

                Your main argument is composed of: "Hey there are bullets flying at us and ever seen what an AK47 round can do?" (which I in fact have)

                Yeah well thats what SWAT gets paid for.
                hklover

                Comment


                • #9
                  hklover, maybe you should go home now.

                  It is quite obvious you are alone in your opinion, and I thank God for that. Those boy's deserve more respect than you will ever know. They are TRAINED PROFFESSIONALS. They know their job, I would never second guess them.

                  To all SWAT out there and any Hostage Rescue or similar dept's, I want you to know I appreciate what you do and so does the majority of the civilian world (hopefully soon I will have a badge, but not yet)

                  hklover, I don't know what your story is, but I assume you are some punk @$$ friggin kid who played Rainbow Six one too many times and think you are some hot $#it with an assault rifle.

                  SHAME ON YOU .... SHAME SHAME SHAME ON YOU.

                  GROW UP and SHUT UP, but first appologise for the insults you have painted here.
                  Education is nothing without experience to back it up.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    FOR CHRIST SAKE, I DID NOT WRITE THE ORIGINAL POST - I FOUND IT ON THIS WEBSITE:
                    http://assaultweb.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/217639.html

                    All I wanted to see was what the responses to it would be from LEOs .. COMMON LEOs, and how people felt about it.

                    I didn't personally insult anyone. I do however feel the SWAT should react quicker and felt they let too much time pass in those two instances.
                    hklover

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I am done acknowleging you now.

                      You posted it here to get a reaction and stated you agreed with most of the points...

                      If we were talking about a crime that could be considdered accessory at best. You aren't an innocent bystander getting flak, you asked for it and now you got it.
                      Education is nothing without experience to back it up.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        FOR CHRIST SAKE, I DID NOT WRITE THE ORIGINAL POST - I FOUND IT ON THIS WEBSITE:
                        Then you say...

                        I didn't write the original post. I do however agree with his points - I mean, why do we pay the SWAT ? To sit around UNTIL it is safe to go in ???
                        why do we pay the SWAT ?
                        In most...almost ALL cases, SWAT members are regular patrol officers who do their SWAT gig as a collateral duty. They receive, in my department's case, anyway, the same amount of incentive pay as an FTO, a motor man and an SRO and less than an investigator.

                        They work their regular shift and are on call 24/7. If they have a buddy in town and want to go out and grab a beer with them, they have to contact the team leader so they don't get called out.

                        On top of that, if they're working and they get a call out, they drop what they are doing, leaving their shift one down to go handle it.

                        To sit around UNTIL it is safe to go in ???
                        The general public sees that as sitting around doing nothing. There are other factors involved. They don't get paid enough to go blindly jumping into something. A little intel is necessary, tactics need to be discussed(contrary to popular belief(public perception), ALL situations are NOT alike). You can't leave one call and go to another call that sounds just like the last one and expect it to be. If you do, and this goes with every single aspect of LE, then you're asking to get yourself hurt, sued, complained on and embarrased. All calls, no matter what they sound like, are not alike and you need to take the extra time to determine what's different.

                        To ask a team of specially trained, highly armed officers to go blindly into a situation is akin to asking them to swallow their own guns. Yes, they get paid to go into harm's way, but not enough to commit suicide. The goal of the game is to come home and see mama, and you can't do that by blindly going forth.

                        The number of SWAT call outs are miniscule compared to the volume of normal calls. Sure, when you talk about large cities, the numbers are higher, but the percentage are around the same. As with anything that happens in a flash, problems can be present. Along with this are wrong addresses, bad information, old intel, suspect not there, etc. Because of this it doesn't pay to jump in. Also, by comparison these incidents aren't near as frequent as the opponents of SWAT make them out to be. They'll make you believe their version by putting hyperbole(kinda like the peacock analogy) to get the public to feela as strongly as they do. What they actually do is latch onto a small amount, a very small percentage and use that as their battle cry.

                        and the public sees them as superheroes.
                        I see them as ***** *** bitches.
                        We'll see how the "author's" attitude changes when he needs the assistance of a SWAT team. I'm sure that would never happen, though, since he knows far more than any tac team member ...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hk has said he didn't write that stuff, and that he wanted to know what some of us think about it. He did say he agreed with the points made. While I don't agree with it, I think it unfair to go off on him. I understand as one with 'going off' experiance, but It doesn't look like we're giving him a chance. Just my 2 cents.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thanks FLLawdog , thats the type of response I was looking to for. Good points that I was not aware of.

                            I was under the impression SWAT were not regular patrol officers, etc and were a specialized force called in when needed.

                            Certainly that does affect my opinion on the topic.
                            hklover

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Certainly that does affect my opinion on the topic.
                              Something that the author of that post doesn't want you to do because he wants to paint the picture that they're nothing but a bunch of jackbooted thugs.

                              One more thing I didn't touch on about the "waiting around". Since SWAT members are called out, then they have to get everyone there before they act.

                              I wasn't at Columbine, so I can't comment on what happened there in regards to the SWAT procedures and actions. What you hear, days, months...years is speculation. A friend of a friend, whose cousin's boyfriend's uncle's boss said that he heard this is what happened. Based on that, the public may get some information that COULD lead to that being fact, but there are key points indicating otherwise that are overlooked. When all else fails, blame the cops.

                              Comment

                              MR300x250 Tablet

                              Collapse

                              What's Going On

                              Collapse

                              There are currently 6589 users online. 355 members and 6234 guests.

                              Most users ever online was 26,947 at 07:36 PM on 12-29-2019.

                              Welcome Ad

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X