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"Cops need a safer bullet"

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  • "Cops need a safer bullet"

    -Al Sharpton commenting on the NYPD going from issuing FMJ to hollow-point.

    Try this one:

    http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/local/6_19_03ammo_flap.html

    75 groups oppose hollow-point ammunition used by law officers and Homeland Security agencies, including the Border Patrol. Foes say it is unnecessarily lethal.
    LUKE TURF
    Tucson Citizen
    June 19, 2003
    A Pima County sheriff's deputy says a hollow-point bullet he used to kill a robbery suspect saved his and his partner's lives several years ago.
    The ammunition worked as it was supposed to, which has made it controversial for decades.
    When a Washington, D.C.-based legal support group learned that several Department of Homeland Security agencies, including the U.S. Border Patrol, were seeking more supplies of the rounds, it started a campaign against their use.
    Local human rights group Derechos Humanos is one of 75 groups signed onto the campaign.
    Critics of "controlled expansion bullets" contend the hollow-point bullets - used by the Border Patrol since the 1970s - are unnecessarily lethal.
    "We don't think that (hollow points) are necessary; they cause massive injuries," said Donald Kerwin, executive director of Washington, D.C.- based Catholic Legal Immigration Network Inc. "We were shocked to find that they're standard issue for the Border Patrol and other immigration agents."
    Besides Border Patrol, many law enforcement agencies use hollow-point bullets. Military personnel generally use full-metal-jacket bullets.
    Hollow points are designed so the tip expands when they hit their target, dispensing all their energy into the target.
    Tucson Police Department officers and Pima County Sheriff's Department deputies, who work in predominantly urban settings, use hollow points because they are less likely to rip through a human body or, say, the wall of a building, and hit an innocent bystander.
    But CLINIC's Kerwin argued the Border Patrol does not need the bullets along the mainly rural U.S.-Mexico border.
    CLINIC, a legal support system for nonprofit Catholic agencies that represent low-income immigrants, wants Department of Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge to stop the Border Patrol from using the ammunition. Ridge's department oversees the Border Patrol.
    Kerwin said "it's no surprise" a Border Patrol agent killed a man outside Douglas recently, because the hollow-point bullets are more dangerous.
    But an independent law enforcement expert in Long Beach, Calif., Anthony Paul, said no one bullet is more or less dangerous than another.
    "They're both going to kill you," Paul said.
    Pima County Sheriff's Department range master Sgt. Thayer Thacker said hollow-point bullets are more deadly. He knows firsthand. In 1997, using hollow-point bullets, he shot and killed an 18-year-old armed robber.
    "Basically it causes more tissue damage, more blood loss, which means the person stops doing whatever they were doing, in theory," Thacker said. "We hit the guy twice and he stopped his hostile action immediately."
    The Border Patrol and Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement are among the Homeland SecurityDepartment agencies seeking bids for 225 million rounds of ammunition, most likely hollow-point bullets, said Homeland Security contract specialist Paul Shannon.
    Officials from the Border Patrol referred questions to the Homeland Security's National Firearms Unit, which referred questions to ICE.
    A spokesman for ICE, Greg Palmore, said hollow points meet all Department of Justice use-of-force policies.
    "Overall, any handgun can cause a fatality," he said.
    "It's the classic law enforcement ammo," said Homeland Security's Shannon.
    Kerwin said CLINIC has long wanted Border Patrol to stop using hollow points.
    Shannon estimates the 225 million rounds of .40-caliber bullets would last about five years. Though the solicitation doesn't specifically seek hollow points, Shannon said they're asking manufacturers to submit the "best quality bullet."
    Two Arizona congressmen are split on the issue.
    U.S. Rep. Ra

  • #2
    What an IDIOT!

    I say strap Sharpton BEHIND an ******* awaiting execution via firing squad somewhere, and issue the firing squad detail FMJ ammo so Sharpton can witness for himself WHY hollowpoints are used. OR, send him on a bear hunt on Kodiak Island, armed with FMJ ammo. IDIOT......
    "When you guys get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a *****."
    -Commanding General, 1st Marine Division

    Comment


    • #3
      Well we could always make guns non-lethal by just taking away the bullets. Then, if the bad guy doesn't stop when he sees the gun, you could always chuck it at him.

      Comment


      • #4
        U.S. Rep. Ra

        Comment


        • #5
          I am of the opinion that as soon as you unlawfully threaten anybody's life, you pretty much get what's coming to you, whether it's a cop or a citizen you threaten. Cops have every right to expect that they can use the force required to ensure their safety AND the safety of others.

          Bullets that penetrate less but are more likely to cause "action-stopping" results? I'M ALL FOR IT. Let's try a test- put one of these people in a situation where some butthead is threatening to KILL you, and see if they feel like they need a "less lethal" bullet then
          I am disrespectful to dirt. Can you see that I am serious? - Mr. Sparkle

          Comment


          • #6
            I thought cops already carried around several non-lethal weapons, seems odd to take away their only lethal weapon...
            Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass.
            -Mark Twain

            Comment


            • #7
              Im all for cops carrying FMJ bullets, You never know, next time an officer returns fire in the 'hood, he/she might get more then one of the useless ****ers

              Comment


              • #8
                quote:
                And this stupid MOFO actually won an election.
                Tells a lot about the stupid MOFO's that voted for him, don't it?

                Comment


                • #9
                  quote:
                  Originally posted by Mike Tx:
                  [QUOTE]Tells a lot about the stupid MOFO's that voted for him, don't it?

                  Well he is a democrat.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sure, we'll switch from hollowpoints...to .50.

                    Kristen

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      What do they think the point of "lethal force" is in the first place? I'm waiting for somebody to advocate us trying to shoot the gun out of their hand instead of aiming center mass.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Maybe somebody should tell that with hollowpoints the NYPD won't have shoot people so many times.
                        "Integrity is like virginity. Once it's lost, you can't get it back." --drunkhunter

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          quote:
                          U.S. Rep. Ra
                          "When you guys get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a *****."
                          -Commanding General, 1st Marine Division

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            QUOTE: "Pima County Sheriff's Department range master Sgt. Thayer Thacker said hollow-point bullets are more deadly. He knows firsthand. In 1997, using hollow-point bullets, he shot and killed an 18-year-old armed robber.
                            "Basically it causes more tissue damage, more blood loss, which means the person stops doing whatever they were doing, in theory," Thacker said. "We hit the guy twice and he stopped his hostile action immediately."


                            Unless this guy was majorly mis-quoted (which is a distinct possibility) this was a SEVERELY irresponsible and misinformed statement to make.

                            Shoot twice and they'll stop immediately??? Each time??? No matter where those two shots hit them??? No matter how determined they are??? Whether or not their pain receptors are working?? Whether or not they are crazy, disciplined, drugged up, or all three??

                            All you do is shoot them a couple of times with these "wonder bullets" and they practically evaporate in a puff of smoke, huh?

                            Sorry.... I hate to step on toes.. but surviving a shooting does not a terminal ballistics expert make.

                            The opportunists and politicians I can excuse.. I expect thisfrom them. But the "Range Master" should have known better than to make such a statement to anyone, much less the press.

                            Highly irresponsible.. like I said.. unless he was mis-quoted.
                            -Sparky

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Back in the early '80's, our Chief decided that all officers would carry round-nose .38 ammunition only. It was called a "humane" bullet. Bunch of bull. It was pressed on him by several groups like LULAC & NAACP. It didn't last long.

                              Comment

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