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  • #16
    quote:
    Originally posted by n567:


    Now Jim, don't be so negative towards games, you can't be good at everything, and there's probably a younger relative in your family that routinely whoops your *** at tekken or virtua fighter...

    n567,

    I don't feel that way because I can't play the game. It's because the games are just used to keep people at busy-work. The games are a tell-tale of what American mores really are. Here's a game for kids, which deals with the hero being a seller of Cocaine, killing and destroying. At the same time the kid plays this game for hours, his parents are laying about the house smoking weed or brewing up some Meth.

    BTW, when I visit my nephews and nieces they put those games down and get outside to play. That's where kids belong: outside, playing with whatever they find at hand.

    Jim Burnes

    Comment


    • #17
      Who said anything about our nameless thug being a hero? He's merely the protagonist. These games were never meant for anyone under 15; the game designers explicitly say themselves that it is wrong for kids to play the game. And I'll have you know he never deals drugs! He may run drugs, and kill rival smack dealers, but... Besides, the army kills and destroys, but people don't raise nearly so much a furor about games like America's Army (made with 20 million of your tax dollars!).

      Ummmm, I fail to see the connection that kids who play this game have meth-heads for parents.

      I do agree that kids should go outside and play, no doubt about that, but videogames are merely modern versions of many a game...
      Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass.
      -Mark Twain

      Comment


      • #18
        quote:
        Originally posted by n567:
        These games were never meant for anyone under 15; the game designers explicitly say themselves that it is wrong for kids to play the game. And I'll have you know he never deals drugs! He may run drugs, and kill rival smack dealers, but...
        ...

        Those game makers: Very funny guys

        Comment


        • #19
          Oink et al:

          I understand that many people find these games fun and, if that's your bag, fine. I personally don't enjoy playing a game that glamorizes the things I'm fighting out on the streets. But I'm fully for individual freedoms, and, if you're an adult, playing these games is a right granted in the Constitution (Freedom of Speech).

          What you have to understand (and would learn if you read Col. Grossman's book) is what kind of effect these games, as well as violent movies, etc., have on kids.

          It's been a while since I read the book, but I'll try to paraphrase a few points:

          1. Rates of "non-firing" soldiers (ones that refused to fire or intentionally missed the enemy) in combat situations in the modern era (when they started using firearms) were high, sometimes making up a majority of the fighting force. This lasted all the way through WWII. After WWII, they started studying this and learned that humans have an innate aversion to killing other humans, especially at close range. So they started studying how to overcome this aversion and learned that, through training and immersion in real-life scenarios, the military could help circumvent this natural response. The results were overwhelmingly successful. By Vietnam, rates of non-firing soldiers in combat situations had plummted to single-digit percentages.

          2. The type of real-life scenarios the military (and law enforcement) uses to overcome our natural distaste for killing one another have advanced to the use of simulations very similar to (and, in some cases, probably inferior to) of such mature-themed video games as GTA:VC, Mortal Kombat and others.

          3. Children aged 8-14 (I may be a little off on the ages) are learning how they will socially interract with the rest of the world. They are the most susceptible to suggestion and most swayed by what they experience. Desensitizing them to violence and lawbreaking at this early age can have serious effects later on. The research supports it.

          No, every kid that plays violent games and watches R-rated movies is not going to become a psychopathic killer. But it leads to a loosening of the social mores against violence and lawbreaking. And that's the last thing we need these days.
          Caution and worry never accomplished anything.

          Comment


          • #20
            I don't know if the game will create killers but I ran across two separate situations recently. A trio of young teenage boys dressed in baggy pants, torn t-shirts, & strange haircuts were discussing video games & one of them brought up Grand Theft Auto. They started talking about a particular stage of the game when they had busted some guys in the head & stole his money or car or something. They were using terms such as, "cool" & "awesome" & laughing about it. Then I had a class of 8th graders I was talking to & almost all of them were criticizing the game & saying how it should be banned. I don't know if any one of the three thug-looking boys has ever been in our judicial system or ever will be & I don't know if one of the nice-dressed students might ever flip out & start a killing spree. But I don't care for the flippant attitude of the boys laughing & carrying on about the brutal murder of an innocent citizen even if it is only a game. To me that's cause enough to warrant removal of the game from the shelves.

            Comment


            • #21
              quote:
              Originally posted by kirch:
              [QB]Oink et al:

              I understand that many people find these games fun and, if that's your bag, fine. QB]

              I see your point, We have definitely seen a shift in entertainment from the hero cops of the seventies and eighties to Thug-heroes, This is vey disturbing since it reflects the general attitude of society, The question is if art is imitating life or vise versa. It can go both ways if the scumbag is susceptible enough.
              I assume most ppl see the value in it that I do - The impressive 3d enviroments that can now be rendered in real-time on a home PC.
              I personally would have been much happier with the good-guy type roll-playing genre, But I don't take it THAT seriously anyway.

              Lets remember that violence is not just a factor of criminal-behaviour and general disrespect for life, From the Soldier to the Cop, violence can be a means to protect the innocent and in the end can save more lives than it takes.

              Any soldier that hesitates or refuses to fire is a terrible soldier, they put their unit and their country at risk to trade their countrymen for their consience. They do what they have to do for the greater good not nessisarily because they like it.
              It's the classic argument of wether or not the ends justify the means.

              But most of us who are happy to not be living under nazi rule would agree that it was worth the bloodshed, We didn't start the war, just finished it!
              It's not wether a person has an aversion to violence that counts, but rather if they use it to do good, A person can be violent and still be a hero. Violence in and of itself is not always a tool of evil.
              I think if you enjoy the graphics, the living city and all that, just don't take the story line too seriously. If you enjoy random slaughter of innocents then vent your fury in the game and keep that stuff off our streets. I am constantly disturbed by the violence out there, I wish I WAS desensitised sometimes.

              A person who goes into shock at the sight of blood is no good to protect anyone.
              Aside from the negative role of the protagonist... what makes you think these 'desensitised' kids will grow up to be thugs rather than Cops, Soldiers, Paramedics, Doctors.....and so on?

              Sorry 'bout the long post, I rant alot!
              All of god's creatures are entitled to live without fear of "gun violence" except for you and your family. - <a href="http://www.handguncontrolinc.org/selfdefense_quiz.htm" target="_blank">Source</a>

              Comment


              • #22
                quote:
                Originally posted by n567:
                However, as long as the adult is buying the game for the kid, they have no right to refuse service.

                you're saying that a store is OBLIGED to sell a product to an adult ? Under what law ?

                If I walk into a shop and say "Pint of milk mate" and he replies "NO" what law is he breaking ?
                from your old mate
                c h i e f y
                global chiefy to yer seadog seafarin' maties

                Comment


                • #23
                  They're only oligated to sell the product if they don't want to be grabbed by the throat and screamed at...
                  All of god's creatures are entitled to live without fear of "gun violence" except for you and your family. - <a href="http://www.handguncontrolinc.org/selfdefense_quiz.htm" target="_blank">Source</a>

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Let's think back:

                    Elvis was going to turn all of the kids into raving sex maniacs..

                    The rest of Rock and Roll aka: the Devil's Music, was gonig to turn all of the kids into hoodlums...

                    Let's see... more on topic...

                    Dungeons and Dragons was going to turn kids into whacked out Satan Worshipers..

                    KISS were supposed to be Knights In Satan's Service and employed backmasking to seduce vulnerable minds into worshiping the "Lightbringer"...

                    ....same with Ozzy Osbourne...

                    all the Punk rockers were going to cause the downfall of society as we know it...

                    It goes on and on and on and on and on...

                    All due respect to LT. COL. Grossman (ret.), but I think his and others estimation of the media's effect on children is a little overblown.

                    Media exposure to violence alone does not turn one into a sociopath.

                    Indeed, exposure to real violence alone does not. The majority of kids who are physically and sexually abused do not grow up to become offenders themselves.

                    And... many violent offenders had perfectly normal, happy, healthy childhoods.

                    Everyone here knows better than to suppose that seeing it on TV and on the Playstation is completely different than in the real world.

                    We had the training, we had realistic sims in the academy... but don't tell me that the first time you found yourself taking the slack out of a trigger you weren't suddenly very well aware of the fact that real life was suddenly MUCH different than simulation.
                    -Sparky

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I came in late on this thread, and i skimmed over the posts. i've never played one of these games, but tonite on the new they showed a clip of one, where a guy was kicking a prostitute to death, she was on the ground with her legs apart, he was kicking and kicking, and blood was flying everywhere. i dont really even know how to comment on that one... and it's called a "game?" i MUST be getting old...

                      i remember on the Forum when people were talking about the awful "anti-cop," violent lyrics of Rap music. to me this is 1000 times worse. i also was told by a guy at work that in one of the games, the bad guy kills a cop's baby.

                      i am usually against censorship, but i know that even though these games have a rating for a certain age, that little kids are playing them.

                      i dont know what the craving for violence is... i'm not an expert. but i feel that watching a movie is different than "participating" by playing one of these games. it's a much higher level of "excitement."

                      [ 12-19-2002, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: jellybean40 ]
                      "You did what you knew how to do...and when you knew better, you did better." ~~Maya Angelou

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Watch what your kiddos are doing....

                        Don't let them gain an interest in something so vile, and by that I mean take an interest in them yourself. Know them (kids), and they will know you. The ones that love these games, I have to ask--what do they see at home? What children see/experience is what they live and act out, for the most part.

                        Only speaking from experience here. I don't want my kids to have to see the things I've seen in the line of duty. I don't want them so sensitive that they won't stand up for themselves or the innocent either, tho. I guess what I'm saying is that we must use our own judgement as to where to draw the line. A very clear, bold line.

                        Out
                        American by Birth, Aggie By Choice, TEXAN by the grace of God...

                        "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, what matters is the size of the fight in the dog."

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          quote:
                          Lets remember that violence is not just a factor of criminal-behaviour and general disrespect for life, From the Soldier to the Cop, violence can be a means to protect the innocent and in the end can save more lives than it takes.

                          So are you saying that it's good that children are becoming less sensitive to violent behavior? That they can then put their powers to good, rather than evil? I hope I'm misconstruing your intent.

                          In a perfect world, nobody would use violence to accomplish their goals, good or bad. Obviously, we're a far cry from a perfect world. But it's not a bad thing to be striving for.

                          Making violent behavior more acceptable to society (by lessening our aversion to it when young) seems, to me at least, to be heading in the wrong direction.

                          quote:
                          Any soldier that hesitates or refuses to fire is a terrible soldier, they put their unit and their country at risk to trade their countrymen for their consience. They do what they have to do for the greater good not nessisarily because they like it.
                          It's the classic argument of wether or not the ends justify the means.


                          You have to understand that, over thousands of years of evolution and social conditioning, we've been conditioned to believe that it's not right to kill another human being. It's hard-wired, so to speak, except in cases of mental disease or defect. It's not surprising that, when you can see the enemy (and note that he's human, like you) it's hard to pull the trigger. That's why this desensitization is necessary in military and law enforcement circles so they can do what they have to do for the right cause.

                          It's not a good idea for society at large to follow the same path.

                          quote:
                          However, as long as the adult is buying the game for the kid, they have no right to refuse service

                          Actually, I believe retailers in most states have the TOTAL right to decide who they sell to. It's not a consumer's RIGHT to buy something from a merchant, it's a PRIVELEGE. And the merchant can revoke that privelege at any time. If you go into a store demanding they sell you something after they've asked you to leave, at least in these parts, I'm going to show up and kick your tail out the door. If you come back, I'll end up writing you a citation for trespassing.
                          Caution and worry never accomplished anything.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            quote:
                            Originally posted by Sparky:
                            The majority of kids who are physically and sexually abused do not grow up to become offenders themselves.

                            If only that was more common knowledge...
                            I think it can make a person VERY opposed to violence and very empathetic to others in similar situations, But too many BGs use the "I was abused" BS excuse line...

                            quote:
                            Originally posted by jellybean40:
                            i also was told by a guy at work that in one of the games, the bad guy kills a cop's baby.

                            I wonder if it is Max Payne you are refering to?
                            The junkies killed his wife too, It made it so understandable how he went from good-cop to vigilante, Yes it is brutal, But it also set up his motivation completely and showed the devestating effects of illicit drugs on society. After that scene it feels so right being on a drug-dealer killing spree, It may not be justice but it somehow feels effective.
                            It's a nice change of pace from the usual scumbag oriented video-games to have a good cop doing bad things for all the right reasons. A good ol' scumbag-shootin' game! [Wink]
                            All of god's creatures are entitled to live without fear of "gun violence" except for you and your family. - <a href="http://www.handguncontrolinc.org/selfdefense_quiz.htm" target="_blank">Source</a>

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              kirch,
                              quote:
                              That's why this desensitization is necessary in military and law enforcement circles so they can do what they have to do for the right cause.

                              It's not a good idea for society at large to follow the same path.

                              I do not advocate these games for children. OTOH, I do not believe that it is only necessary for LE and military to use deadly force. If a citizen is in a situation where they need to defend themselves or their family, hesitation is not a good thing. Whether these games actually have any effect I'm not sure. I do really have to wonder why these games have gone away from the player being the "good guy" though.

                              [ 12-19-2002, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Bill R ]
                              Bill R

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                quote:
                                Originally posted by kirch:
                                That they can then put their powers to good, rather than evil?

                                I'm saying it is their choice, I'm only trying to illistrate the difference between violence and evil, The scumbag is responsible, let's just remember a major problem today is ppls disreguard for responsibility. They can do whatever their sick imagination can concieve and blame it on video-games!

                                quote:
                                In a perfect world, nobody would use violence to accomplish their goals, good or bad.
                                Goes without saying, reasoning is key, but I don't think anyone here would argue the extreme aversion scumbags have to reason. Let's keep shooting for the goal of world peace, but for now the world is what it is, And we're doing our best with what we have.

                                quote:
                                You have to understand that, over thousands of years of evolution and social conditioning, we've been conditioned to believe that it's not right to kill another human being.
                                Of course it's not right, it's sometimes necessary for the greater good is all I'm saying.
                                The difference between a soldier who feels guilty because he fired and the soldier who feels guilty because they did not and it COST lives! Which way is better?

                                quote:
                                That's why this desensitization is necessary in military and law enforcement circles so they can do what they have to do for the right cause...It's not a good idea for society at large to follow the same path.
                                Society at large needs to have an understanding of why police and military do the things they are forced to do, We hear too much citizens complaining because the Police did this or that or the Army's a bunch of evil killers. They usually fail to see the difference between violence that is necissary and violence that is criminal. Why aren't these ppl desensitized?

                                IMHO: I just don't see the connection between desensitization and the desire to do evil, personally I don't want to spend the rest of my life in shock because I watched the news one day.
                                But that doesn't mean I don't want to care, If desensitization and evil behaviour is the same, then is that to say that police(who are desensitized) are evil and don't care anymore?
                                If that was it we'd have no Police Force and total anarchy.
                                I'm just saying desensitization CANNOT make a good person do bad things, if the person is that rotton then they'll start out small-time and eventually get desensitized from the real-world violence they've done.
                                There's such a thing as not being sensitized enough, perhaps a happy medium is ok. But if nobody could tell the difference between violence to hurt and violence to protect then nobody would sign up for armed forces or police agencies, Then we'd be in big trouble. [Eek!]
                                All of god's creatures are entitled to live without fear of "gun violence" except for you and your family. - <a href="http://www.handguncontrolinc.org/selfdefense_quiz.htm" target="_blank">Source</a>

                                Comment

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