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  • Law Enforcement and Martial Arts

    Hello,
    I am running a Kung Fu forum at Royaldragon.4dw.com. I am interested in discussing martial arts from a professional law enforcement perspective. Having trained privately in the home Of a Cook County sheriff years ago, I have an interest in the combative needs of law enforcement personal.

    Would anyone care to visit my forum and discuss some war stories, experiences and how you dealt with them? How about training systems and techniques that would bets fit the needs of those in your field?

    Ultimately, I plan to open a commercial school and I would like to serve the local law enforcement community, so any help you give me will eventually aid forming programs specifically geared to your needs.

    The forum is called Royal Dragon's Kung Fu Forum,

    Thank you

    Gian Lencioni
    Come visit the Royal Dragon Kung Fu Discusion forums at www.dreamwater.net/biz/royaldragon/index.html

  • #2
    I obtained belts in several martial arts over the years, mainly for exercise and stress-reduction. In that time I've found martial arts to be of very limited to no use in LEO confrontations. In the last fifteen years, the growing professionalism of the unarmed combat techniques have grown to where the martial art community no longer has anything to offer the LE community in terms of fighting moves. Its still a good hobby, though.
    Do not walk ahead of me, for I may not follow; do not walk behind me, for I may not lead; do not walk beside me; in fact, get the hell away from me.

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    • #3
      I also obtained several belts in the style of Lau Gar Kung fu and trained in another form called Black Tiger.
      I was much younger then

      I was a Bobby in England and unarmed on the beat.So I had to physically fight the bad guys..I used my skills on a regular basis and they certainly saved my *** on more than one occasion.
      There is more emphasis being placed on cop self defence nowadays. My dept has even sent instructors to the training camps of some of the more well known Ultimate Fighters who are teaching ground fighting and techniques.

      Unfortunately I find that most cops rely on their weapons to save them and if they had to get into a physical fight they would be SOL.
      I wish you luck with your future venture.

      Stay Safe

      Comment


      • #4
        Darth,

        When I think of martial arts (I am an Aikido and TKD student) I think of on-going training that keeps one sharp. Wouldn't you agree that if someone only studies self-defense and unarmed combat in the academy, then they are more likely to over-react or react inappropriately years later?

        At least a student of the MA trains regularly; therefore, they are less likely to suffer from this problem. I do agree that some arts, such as TKD, Kenpo, etc are not exactly geared for LE, (I can see the Dear Chiefs one would write if jump-kicking someone in the head) some are more practical for LE. I think Judo, Aikido, Jui-Jitsu, etc with the ground fighting emphasis would help.

        Of course there are also LE specific self-defense courses such as PPCT (Pressure Point Control Tactics), but these tend to not be offered on a continuing basis.

        I suppose my point is that those who train regulary are more prepared. Just as SWAT's and HRT's etc., have a higher hit rate in deadly force actions than street officers.

        I would be interested in your detailed thoughts on this, including your disciplines studied (mostly because of my interest in all the various styles).
        "Speed is fine, but accuracy is final"--Bill Jordan

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        • #5
          Interesting comment about the UFC fighters. My Girlfriend trains at the school that trained UFC veteran Kieth Hackney.

          Do yu feel the Mixed martial arts fighters have more to offer law enforcment personell than a regular Kung Fu system? or do they just cut to the chase faster?

          Specifically, what kind of techniques do the pro's in your buisness need and use the most?, Do you grappel, strike, joint lock or a combo of all?

          If possible, could you bring this conversation to my board as well?? I'd like some of my memebers to see your comments. royaldragon.4dw.com

          From what I have seen, it looks like a ground, restrain type system that incorperates a submissions that allow ease of cuffing the suspect with little effort, with striking as a backup for the really rowdy ones.

          How do you think throwing arts like Chinese Shui Chiao and Japanese Judo work for you? I know my former teacher has used extreame striking wile trying to apprehend a freaked out suspect once. Actually broke his hand as well as the suspects skull trying to controll the situation wile waiting for backup to make it to him. He got pinned on the opposite side of a fence and was cut off for a good long time. apparently his unit was tring to apprehend the suspect who was in a second story appartment, and he was manning the alley incase of a run (not expecting anything ut a routine wait). The suspect jumped out of the window and bounced off a garbage contaner before landing flat on his back on hard pavement. He had his gun drawn, and wile he was closing on what appeard to be an unconcious or even dead suspect, he relaxed his gaurd in the proces of getting his cuffs out. That's when the guy just exploded off the ground at him in a furious rage and almost over powered him. He says his Kung Fu techniques barely came up, but when he demos part of the altercation to me, it was clearly Iron Hand strikes to the side of the head that finnaly subdued the bad guy.

          I know situations like that are only a small fraction of what is needed, but it was sucsessful for him in that instance.

          Can anyone offer similar stories, and what you did to survive and prevail in them? Especially any Martial training, both in MA schools and regular Law enforcment Channels.

          Thanks, Gian
          Come visit the Royal Dragon Kung Fu Discusion forums at www.dreamwater.net/biz/royaldragon/index.html

          Comment


          • #6
            The majority of my martial arts training took place prior to my start in LE. I ttok them in anticipation of using them as a cop. Simple fact of the matter is, that I've used damn little of them over the 11 years.

            Cops are not ideal students for traditional systems if their interest is job related (as opposed to health or relaxation). Cops want it 5 mins. ago and they want something that works today, not 3 years down the line.

            Most physical encounters I've been in, seen or read the reports for leave little room for a lot of the MA stuff. And, the vast majority end up on the ground.

            Yes, some techniques are of use, but the majority just aren't practical for LE use.

            I'm not knocking the MA's. I loved my time in them and will probably resume training in the next couple of years mostly from a relaxation and fitness standpoint. And some styles, like Aikido etc, seem to be better suited overall to LE, but I'm more in favor of stealing techniques from many arts.

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            • #7
              I just passed my 2nd Dan test last week! I think martial arts can benefit anyone, but marketing to the law enforcement community is good. One of my dreams is to get some law enforcement experience and then open up my own martial arts school. I would integrate some real world applications and situations into my curriculum. Civilians like to be taught by people who are trained law enforcement officers, former military, or asolid training bio behind them. Now the trend is to have some advanced education if your going to work with children. More than anything people want a master who really cares that they learn.

              It will take me several more years to have the money and credentials to do it.

              Only open up a school if you love the martial arts. Don't become one of those watered down McDojos that will pass anybody.
              Man hath no greater love than this, then to lay down his life for his friend.
              "The strength of the wolf is in the pack and the strength of the pack is in the wolf."- Kipling

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              • #8
                The only styles of MA that are going to provide the true confidence and not a FALSE sense of security are those styles that allow you do go 100% against opponent.

                Only grappling styles such as Jiu-Jitsu (typically Brazillian) or a Mixed Martial Arts that again are based on ground control and restraint will provide an officer with a pratical and useful system.

                I have yet see Kung-Fu, Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do, Kenpo, Aikido, or Karate be anywhere NEAR as effective, especially because they are striking based arts and therefore have very little practicality to LE.

                Krav Maga, Israeli system, has been adopted by many academies and agencies because of their no nonsense, non-traditional approach.

                I have been involved in various systems over the years and exposed to many styles. I apologize if I come off arrogant or biased but I am very open minded and I have learned the truth...sometimes the hard way.

                DC

                HEY who is this other "Darth"??

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                • #9
                  It is intersting that you thin Kung Fu is mostly a striking art. My system has thrwos, jiont locks (similar to Akido), uproots AND Striking.

                  True Shaolin Kung Fu (When you can find it) Often starts out in a longer kicking range, move in closer to punching, flows into jiont locks and or throws, but can also retrete back to striking if nessasary. Shaolin systems are SUPOSED to beable to smoothly flow back and forth through these basic ranges as the needs dictate.

                  The art does take some time to get good at, especially learning the proper mechanics and power issueing methods, BUT many techniques can be used as soon as they are commited to memory, as messed up mechanices of a beginner does not inhibit thier ability to get the technique "in", only the level of refinement and ability to correctly issue devestaing power, something thast can often be compensated by "Muscleing it". Then as time goes on and the student begins to get the mechanics these techniques get more and more reliable AND techniques that are maybe even more reliable begin to work with efficiency.

                  It sounds like you gentile men need a short system that can be learned quickly,with throw or take down and joint maniplulating restraints, based in gross motor movements that functions well with little need of refinement.

                  I can probually do that with my system by rearranging the curriculem a bit.
                  Come visit the Royal Dragon Kung Fu Discusion forums at www.dreamwater.net/biz/royaldragon/index.html

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                  • #10
                    How about the israeli Krav Maga system? Isnt that a realistic option?

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                    • #11
                      I like Krav Maga a lot. I think it is a lot more realistic and they cover gun and knife scenarios from the beginning. Check out kravmaga.com.
                      They still lack the FULL intensity and going 100% live which you can get in a MMA or grappling style. They do offer fight classes that are 10x as intense as the average karate sparring class though.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by peacefulwarrior:

                        Only open up a school if you love the martial arts. Don't become one of those watered down McDojos that will pass anybody.
                        McDojos... I love that!!! I pulled my daughter out of one of those McDojos a while back for that reason and a few others.
                        Plus, I was told the owner/instructor BOUGHT his 3rd & 4th Dan!! He's only in it for the signed contracts....$$$$$$
                        She is now taught be a REAL 3rd Dan and at times by a 9th Dan Grandmaster.
                        " Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words." - Calvin

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                        • #13
                          Well, I
                          6P1 (retired)

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                          • #14
                            I agree with Don on this one. While the MA are very good for training on patients and attitude they are not a very good match up to a real street fight. Most of the fights one gets into with LAw enforcement happen quickly and in close quarters thus not allowing the freedom of a lot of movement that is required for a lot of the MA moves. I myself have recieved some training in the MA but had no real use of them on the streeets. I have yet to veiw the isrealis stuff but I know their techniques are a proven street technique.

                            Klar
                            Are you a Veteran? If so join AMVETS the only organization that accepts all vets no matter when or where they served. Contact me for more info.

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                            • #15
                              Hmmm, interesting.
                              I think that MOST martial arts schools are NOT teaching real martil arts, but some sort of silly play tag system designed to maintain student retention. There ARE however a small few Kung Fu schools that still do teach the real world combat Kung Fu.

                              One such school is owned By Wai Lun Choi of Chicago.

                              Hopefully some day "I" will be one also. Which is anoth reason I want to surround my self with alot of cops, it's sort of a "Keepi'n it real" sort of thing.

                              The problem I see is NOT the arts being taugh, it's HOW they are being taught. Many schools have FAR to little contact during training, and way to much talking and not enough drilling of fundamentals.
                              Instead they like to chat, Talk and joke, wile "playing" with moves that for all practical purposes (I can see anyway) are filler moves to keep the students doing different things due to the low attention spans of the clientel they serve.

                              Face it, to get good at a martial art, you must do endless boring drills, repetedly work the same dozen or so techniques until you are doing them in your sleep, then you have to graduate to full fee sparring with HARD contact (Why you have safty equipment), AND you must sweat your behind off staying in shape.
                              It's hard, bloody and you often come home all bruised up. But THAT is real. Most students just want a short health club workout to loose weight, and then be taught a bunch of neat "Make's you invincibel" type tricks. If you don't do that, you can't make enough $$ to keep the doors open, with few exceptions. Thiose exceptions generally have a high percentae of law officers, and or they draw the serious students from all the schools surrounding them and market almos stricktly by word of mouth.

                              The average MA school can't compete with them, and consistantly loose students to those schools, but the REAL schools have difficulty maintaining beginners, who end at the Mc Dojo's. It's a good system, one I would like to creat with in my club someday by offering a duel program, one for the Mcdojo people, and a second traditional program for the serious students, like those that NEED this stuff to work.
                              Come visit the Royal Dragon Kung Fu Discusion forums at www.dreamwater.net/biz/royaldragon/index.html

                              Comment

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