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20 Ohio Marines KILLED This Week

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  • #16
    My heart goes out to the families of the fallen Marines. I got out of the Marine Corps in early 2001, the unit I left when I got out was one of the first to go to Iraq. Every time I hear of a Marine getting killed it hurts my heart. To all of my brothers in the Corps good luck and be safe.
    "Evil will flourish if good men do nothing"- Edmund Burke

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by That Guy
      When we investigate a crime and find that there is no evidence of that crime we stop the investigation and leave. If you want to compare police work to war then its time to leave the country since our investigation has turned up nothing (WMD).
      Police work and war are seperate ideals and completly different procedures.

      TGY
      Are you trying to say that Iraq did not have chemical weapons?
      I'm sure that there are some Iraqi Kurds who know better than that, since a majority Kurd town in northern Iraq was attacked with chemical weapons by Saddam Hussein's regime.
      If Iraq had no chemical weapons, why is there a Muthanna Chemical Weapons Facility in Iraq? Why is there a sign in Arabic in one of the bunkers that say, "If things start to die it means that there is a leak"?

      I am all too aware of the differences between war and police work. Are you?
      The defeatist attitude people have to try to justify leaving Iraq can also be applied to why we should not police a neighborhood.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by stalker3
        Are you trying to say that Iraq did not have chemical weapons?
        I am all too aware of the differences between war and police work. Are you?
        The defeatist attitude people have to try to justify leaving Iraq can also be applied to why we should not police a neighborhood.
        Hey I'm just quoting OUR OWN GOVERNMENT who have said they haven't found any. Not to mention if they did how are the truly a threat to us? The evidence linking Saddam to terrorists have been nil.
        Please give me a valid reason for invading Iraq and not other countries who pose a much greater threat.
        I don't have to engage in a war to have enough sense that war and police work are apples and oranges.
        Of course we are doing positive things in Iraq, I never said we weren't. If we lost 1,700+ cops in one city in about three years I'm sure we would be changing our tactics and revaluate our reason for being there.
        Just because I don't agree with the war doesn't mean I have a defeatist attitude

        TGY
        Disclaimer: The writer does not represent any organization, employer, entity or other individual. The views expressed are those only of the writer. In the case of a sarcastic, facetious, nonsensical, stirring-the-pot, controversial or devil's advocate-type post, the views expressed may not even reflect those of the writer [This sig stolen from Brickcop who stole it from Frank Booth].

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by stalker3
          Are you trying to say that Iraq did not have chemical weapons?
          I'm sure that there are some Iraqi Kurds who know better than that, since a majority Kurd town in northern Iraq was attacked with chemical weapons by Saddam Hussein's regime.
          If Iraq had no chemical weapons, why is there a Muthanna Chemical Weapons Facility in Iraq? Why is there a sign in Arabic in one of the bunkers that say, "If things start to die it means that there is a leak"?

          I am all too aware of the differences between war and police work. Are you?
          The defeatist attitude people have to try to justify leaving Iraq can also be applied to why we should not police a neighborhood.
          Defeatist attitude? Try a realistic attitude.

          There's one problem with your analogy, the US police "police" neighborhoods in the US. We should not police Iraq at the blood of heroic Americans (or did we make Iraq our 51st state?).

          I agree with you about what weapons they may have had in the past but we know "what they have" now. By the President's own admission our heroic Troops aren't over there looking for WMDs any longer. Now we're over there trying to establish a Jeffersonian Democracy to a people who are too cowardly, indifferent and/or ignorant to accept it. That's ok because at the end of the day it's their country- we shouldn't have to send our sons and fathers to die for what type of government they have.
          Last edited by BrickCop; 08-05-2005, 06:36 PM.
          Disclaimer: The writer does not represent any organization, employer, entity or other individual. The first amendment protected views/commentary/opinions/satire expressed are those only of the writer. In the case of a sarcastic, facetious, nonsensical, stirring-the-pot, controversial or devil's advocate-type post, the views expressed may not even reflect those of the writer.

          Comment


          • #20
            An old Soldier's Opinion

            ALCON,

            I have read all of these posts and I can't sit quietly anymore.

            My rank and my specialty doesn't usually allow me to comment on the war or even on others' positions on it but I have to say that when I read the negative comments of those who are tasked to keep us safe it really disturbs me.

            As a serving member of the Armed Forces for over 20 years and somoene who served as a civilain officer for 5, it bothers me when I see such negative remarks about our role in Iraq. I have served in Iraq for two tours. Initially, I wondered why we were there. My Soldiers were in the middle of it all and risked their lives each and every day. We supported both regular and unconventional forces and we did so without complaint or question. I have to say at the end of the tour that we DID support our role there and as we watched the elections it all was made clear to us.

            I am disturbed by those who have never been there and who criticize us for being there. I hate those political pundits who complain for the side of the Republicans or for the side of the Democrats but couldn't tell you the difference in a M4 rifle compared to a M16A2.

            My question is simply this: why not ask those brave men and women who are there? I would guess that the majority would say that we are there serving a valid purpose indeed.

            I have the utmost respect for the brave men and women of law enforcement and public safety. Again, I did the job for several years as a Drug Agent and SWAT member. My fiance is starting the DPD Academy this week. Many of you are questioned as to why you do what you do. It is not for the pay, that is for sure, but for the feeling and for the fact that you are doing what is right. That is why our terrific members of the Armed Forces are doing what they are doing each and every day.

            So, let's don't question WHY they are where they are, let's pray for their safe return and for the successful completion of their mission.

            v/r
            GR37

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by stalker3
              I don't know where you are getting your information from, but you are very mistaken.
              If someone is in a mosque shooting at us, we will shoot back with devastating firepower.
              The president is definately not tying our hands over here.
              We are not exporting our type of criminal justice system to Iraq. I have testified in an American court, and I have testified in an Iraqi court. There are big differences, and it is easier to send a bad guy to prison in Iraq than it is in America.
              I don't know how you are in a position to say that we are not going to kill the enemy while on patrol. If we find a bad guy, we are going to try like hell to capture or kill him.
              If you are a cop, I hope you are not misled so easily and are so quick to give up.
              Are you saying that there have, from the start of this war, not been incidents where troops have been told to back off from a mosque containing hostiles. Or that our people have not been prosecuted for doing things in war, that men have always done in war? If Syria is a source where alot of the enemy fighters are coming from, then why have we not attacked targets there? Everybody knows that those fighters have the blessing of the Syrian government, so why doesn't the President take action. If this is a war then our leaders need to act like they want to win. It doesn't take a genius to know that we are fighting another conflict with one hand tied behind our back, again. I'm not some freaking liberal democrat so save your high and mighty- I've been there- arguements for them. You better be careful with that, because there are plenty of people who have also been there and have a completely different view on whats going on or what needs to happen. Oh yeah, if you've really been to Iraq and if you're really a cop. No war has ever been won by winning hearts and minds, because those people are terrified by those who have neither. I've been patient with and supportive of this conflict, so don't talk to me like I'm some GD liberal 1960s hippie. Can you not tell the difference between somebody who is genuinely concerned about our military and some democrat scum. McArthur was fired for telling the President what needed to be done (Korea), we don't need a bunch of "yes" men showing up on a documentary 20 years from now saying we should have bombed the north (Vietnam), after filling a wall with 58000 names. I'm not a car mechanic either, but when the damn brakes squeel for a year and a half, I know something different needs to happen.
              The liberal politician has the only job where they go to the office to work for everyone but those who pay their salary.

              Comment


              • #22
                Balad AB Jan-May 05

                Been there, done that and I got a couple tee shirts to boot. I have the utmost respect for our troops. I will support our military until I have no blood pressure or pulse. Unfortunately, I didn't get to go outside the wire at Balad AB. What I saw in the operating room though was our young troops coming in on NATO litters splattered with AMERICAN blood, spilled for IRAQI citizens. Iraqi citizens who want the country handed to them on a silver platter. It's my honest opinion that the Iraqi's are not picking up the ball and running with it. As long as we are there babysitting,,they have a free ride. Sadly, that ride is on the backs of the women and men of the US military and it's allies. Our borders need protectin', so we need to bring our folks home. Let's send Spee-dee over there.
                Minimum effort yeilds minimal results

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by That Guy
                  Please give me a valid reason for invading Iraq and not other countries who pose a much greater threat.[/I]

                  TGY
                  You asked for a valid reason, so I will give you one.
                  Iraq invaded Kuwait (they accused Kuwait of slant drilling oil wells from Kuwait into Iraq, claimed Kuwait was actually a province of Iraq, just wanted to increase beach frontage, etc.). The US thought this was wrong for Kuwait and was a threat to our ally (Saudi Arabia), as well as ecenomic stability (oil). The UN agreed, and we eventually kicked Iraq out of Kuwait. We offered Iraq a cease fire, and Iraq accepted the terms of the cease fire. Some of the terms included an inspection program and a no-fly zone. Iraq violated those terms by shooting at our planes enforcing the no-fly zone and not cooperating with the inspection program.
                  Since these were terms to which Iraq agreed as part of the cease fire, is the cease fire still valid?
                  This might have not been the reason stated, but you asked for a valid reason. I do not make policy.
                  Other reasons could be the way the Iraqi government brutalized its people (random executions, using chemical weapons on its own people), contributed to regional instability in a region where the world needs stability because of oil reserves, etc. We limited the terrorists' access to Afghanistan, so they had to go somewhere else. I'm sure Iraq's government would have welcomed them with open arms (my enemy's enemy is my friend), but that is no longer the case. Instead of doing their thing in the US, many are doing it in Iraq because it is easier. I'll take Iraq over America for terrorist activity any day.
                  Most of the people I encounter in Iraq tell me that they are very happy we removed their brutal dictator from power ("Saddam no good. America very good" when they invite us over for chai (tea) and don't like to take no for an answer. All the Iraqis I saw voting for the first time in Iraq looked pretty happy to have that right.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by tony.o
                    Are you saying that there have, from the start of this war, not been incidents where troops have been told to back off from a mosque containing hostiles. Or that our people have not been prosecuted for doing things in war, that men have always done in war? If Syria is a source where alot of the enemy fighters are coming from, then why have we not attacked targets there? It doesn't take a genius to know that we are fighting another conflict with one hand tied behind our back, again. You better be careful with that, because there are plenty of people who have also been there and have a completely different view on whats going on or what needs to happen. Oh yeah, if you've really been to Iraq and if you're really a cop. I'm not a car mechanic either, but when the damn brakes squeel for a year and a half, I know something different needs to happen.
                    Do you really think everything the media tells you is the truth or accurate or the entire story?
                    I am not in a position any more than you are to say soldiers have been told to back off a mosque. Unlike you, I am in a position to say I have not only never been told to back off from a mosque but know for a fact that in my experience, if a bad guy wants to shoot at us from a mosque, the mosque will not prevent him from being on the receiving end of some pretty good fire power.
                    As for prosecuting people for doing things in war, you are going to have to be more specific.
                    As for attacking Syria, I do not make policy, so I am not in the best position to give you a good answer. Maybe because if it took more than a month, people like you would be saying we screwed that up too, and I'm sure there would be more left wingers making irresponsible or uninformed comments and protesting.
                    I, unlike you, am in a position to say we do not have our hands tied behind our backs. There are rules of engagement (force option continueum), but I don't feel like my hands are tied behind my back.
                    As far as people who have been there and disagree, I do not doubt that. I do think many of those joined the military expecting nothing but the benefits, and cried when it was time to pay the piper by applying their skills in the environment for which they were trained (there is no such thing as a free lunch). It is their right to disagree, just as it is my right to disagree with you and your right to disagree with me.
                    As far as the breaks squeeling for a year and a half, you might want to rethink your time line.

                    As far as the "Oh yeah, if you've really been to Iraq and if you're really a cop.", I'm not sure how to respond to that, so please advise me how I can clarify that to your satisfaction. I have been to Iraq twice, and I am in the Sunni Triangle in Iraq as I write this. I have been a cop for over ten years. Do you want pictures, a resume, references, what? If you make me go through some annoying process to present my credentials, I will probably call you an idiot afterward. If you doubt me, oh well. I do know there are plenty of idiots on this forum, and it is pretty easy to log on, say I'm from TN, say I am a LEO, and leave it at that. You sound like the Democrat attack machine, where if you don't like the message you attack and attemt to discredit the messenger.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      If the Coallition forces leave then these Brave Servicemen will have died for nothing, that would be unacceptable.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        As a former Marine who was in the Gulf the first go round, and whose younger brother is on his second tour in Iraq, and who personally knows a soldier(my brothers best friend) who survived a roadside IED that killed the other soldiers and the interpreter he was with, I will simply say that I fully agree with and support the comments made by Stalker and Ghost Rider and am dismayed by some of the other views expressed.

                        (Ghost Rider 37, said injured soldier's father WAS a Ghost Rider in another era.)

                        As far as Iraq having no ties to terrorism, am I the only one who recalls the news reports of Saddam offering $15k-$20k to the families of suicide bombers?
                        How can anyone possibly claim that this was not a direct support of terrorism.
                        "It is better to avoid than to fight, better to deter than to kill. But.....it is better to kill than to die, or watch an innocent slaughtered, because you didn't have the wherewithal to defend them." - M. A.

                        "We should bear in mind that, in general, it is the object of our newspapers rather to create a sensation-to make a point-than to further the cause of truth."-Edgar Allan Poe(1809-1849)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sotex
                          As far as Iraq having no ties to terrorism, am I the only one who recalls the news reports of Saddam offering $15k-$20k to the families of suicide bombers?
                          How can anyone possibly claim that this was not a direct support of terrorism.
                          He offered money to the family of Hamas suicide terrorists who attacked Israel not the US. No one is disputing Hussein was an evil POS, he just simply was not the threat to National Security we were lead to believe. There was a clear an unquestionable Al- Quaeda link with the Taliban and Afghanistan, the same cannot be said with Iraq no matter how you spin it.

                          I am dismayed that some believe that if you question the President you are by default questioning the troops. I voted for Bush (twice) but that does mean he gets a free pass.

                          Putting this issue aside for a moment, please indulge me in posing a hypothetical question.

                          What if a President gave the order to attack Iceland one day. The military would carry it out with their usual heroism and professionalism- that cannot be disputed but that would not mean it was a sound decision on the Presiden't part.

                          Note: I am NOT comparing Iraq to Iceland. I'm just making the point that the Military's unparalleled dedication to carry out their mission is mutually exclusive of the President who issued said order.

                          We went in looking for WMD and have since determined that Iraq does not have them. I have no problem with that, I just believe we should now leave the Sunni, Shiite, etc factions to spill their own blood in their civil war. Using our troops in hopes the Iraqis will establish, embrace and defend democracy is simply not worth one more American soldier's life.
                          Last edited by BrickCop; 08-07-2005, 12:19 PM.
                          Disclaimer: The writer does not represent any organization, employer, entity or other individual. The first amendment protected views/commentary/opinions/satire expressed are those only of the writer. In the case of a sarcastic, facetious, nonsensical, stirring-the-pot, controversial or devil's advocate-type post, the views expressed may not even reflect those of the writer.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by stalker3
                            This might have not been the reason stated, but you asked for a valid reason. I do not make policy.
                            Since you compared war to police work, then you know that you can't use reasons found after a traffic stop to justify your stop. Like say you stop a car because you think the tint is off and find that it isn't but you find lots of drugs. Then you notice that the front plate is missing after you stop it. You can't just say, "Look no front plate!"
                            I agree that he violated UN conditions (if they weren't plz let me know) so I'd assume that the UN should handle it. Not to mention he violated it periodically and we never really made a fuss.
                            My problem is that the initial reasons were weak and unconvincing. Even the CIA has said that they had stretched the Intel they gave. That tells me there are other underlying reasons but tell us why. Yeah I know we shouldn't know everything but we should get the truth if we are going to get our people killed or hurt.
                            You listed other reasons of human rights violations. What about China? They have done a lot worse to their people but its ok since American companies are making tons of money there? What about African countries killing MILLIONS of people? I think we can make a much better difference and have world backing if we went there don't you think? And yes I understand that we don't "need" it but we aren't the Super Cop. If we are makning the world tour of freeing opressed nations I think it's time to move on.

                            Ghost Rider

                            By questioning WHY we are there we can get them home safe. Isn't that the best support? I agree with Brick it's time to give Iraq more of the work. Just because people don't agree with the war doesn't make them Anti-American or Anti-military. Why do you think that??
                            I have asked guys why they volunteered to go and many are looking basically to get some trigger time and to say they have been there. Many say it's their duty and they are doing what their country asks of them. We should be thinking responsibly when sending troops into harms way shouldn't we?

                            TGY
                            Disclaimer: The writer does not represent any organization, employer, entity or other individual. The views expressed are those only of the writer. In the case of a sarcastic, facetious, nonsensical, stirring-the-pot, controversial or devil's advocate-type post, the views expressed may not even reflect those of the writer [This sig stolen from Brickcop who stole it from Frank Booth].

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by stalker3

                              As far as the "Oh yeah, if you've really been to Iraq and if you're really a cop.", I'm not sure how to respond to that, so please advise me how I can clarify that to your satisfaction. I have been to Iraq twice, and I am in the Sunni Triangle in Iraq as I write this. I have been a cop for over ten years. Do you want pictures, a resume, references, what? If you make me go through some annoying process to present my credentials, I will probably call you an idiot afterward. If you doubt me, oh well. I do know there are plenty of idiots on this forum, and it is pretty easy to log on, say I'm from TN, say I am a LEO, and leave it at that. You sound like the Democrat attack machine, where if you don't like the message you attack and attemt to discredit the messenger.
                              You questioned my employment in your first response, with the "if your a cop" and that I'm easily misled, and by the way, I was expressing my opinion just as you. So why are you upset when I turn it around back to you? (Yes I believe you)I think we are on the same side on this issue, I'm just not going to sing in the choir, just because Bush is president, who I do like. If you don't believe me, its easy, I'll private message you my cell phone number when you get back home, work number or whatever you want. Unless you are one of these hit and run posters. I've never been called a democrat and I think I made some good points.
                              The liberal politician has the only job where they go to the office to work for everyone but those who pay their salary.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                What if a President gave the order to attack Iceland one day.

                                Iceland is actually one of the refeuling stops on the way to Iraq. Keflavik Naval Air Station is the name of the base. This is off topic, but I just thought I would like to throw that out there.

                                Comment

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