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  • PPCT or Monadnock?

    As a DT instructor I am curious to what type of DT is taught/reinforced within your department. How do you feel about the Defensive Tactics techniques you are trained to use? (I won't say which I prescribe to until a few posts)
    Last edited by 72na55; 07-17-2005, 07:27 PM. Reason: why

  • #2
    In my department we use PPCT. In the few occasions that I have used it I had no problems. I am more comfortable with the USD tactics I learned as an MP in the Army because they are simple and effective (and I am much more familiar with them).

    I am also certified by Monadnock on the PR-24 and MEB. I enjoyed the control techniques taught in the PR-24 course, but I haven't run across a single department that carries it. I was certified when I was an MP and the Army was field testing it.
    No man is justified in doing evil on the grounds of expediency. - Theodore Roosevelt, The Strenuous Life: Essays and Addresses (1900)

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    • #3
      Our DT is really lacking. The OC and ASP classes are decent enough, but most of our DT seems to be geared toward officers who are old or overweight. It basically involves a lot of commands, with a list of things not to do (chokes, etc). Most of our DT basically assumes the bad guy will obey your commands so you don't have to get control of him.

      Needless to say, I rely on training I've got elsewhere....

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      • #4
        Mine was taught mostly by LAPD SWAT so I got a lot of Judo and some boxing and a whole lot of Cartoid restraint. I had a great time. We were also taught the ASP, side handle and straight baton. I liked the straight the best out of the three.
        "Respect for religion must be reestablished. Public debt should be reduced. The arrogance of public officials must be curtailed. Assistance to foreign lands must be stopped or we shall bankrupt ourselves. The people should be forced to work and not depend on government for subsistence." - Cicero, 60 B.C.

        For California police academy notes go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CABasicPolice/

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        • #5
          Ppct

          I am a PPCT DT Instructor. After 24 years I can honestly say that if an officer will develop muscle memory with the techniques taught, your success ratio in confrontations goes way up. PPCT stands for Pressure Point Control Techniques which allows fluid strikes by ASP, knee or other body parts to key areas which render the suspect helpless.....yes even most of the PCP nuts.

          If your DT training lacks, I would look up the closest PPCT instructor and get some hands on. In my area, I offer FREE classes to any commissioned law enforcement personnel. Especially small dept's which have little or no training budgets. What I have found is that 85% of my students have had little or no DT training since academy. If you think about it, how many times do you use your hands/handcuffs vs a weapon? That is why it is SOOOO critical to train on DT skills. The tactical positioning and speed cuffing (under 2 seconds) come into play every day. Whether on an interview or traffic stop, these techniques significantly increase survival rate. PLEASE take your DT training seriously. Your life and career depend on it.

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          • #6
            FORMER LEO i never was certified w/ pr24, but a lot of the old guys really liked them, the only prob. i had with it, was that if you didnt stay proficeint with one, and you mess up using it, you just gave the bad guy a weapon. expandables are a joke, they are to light and flimsy, only good for a quick fix to get some space between you and bad guy. i preferred taking someone to the ground and using joint locks, only time i ever had a prob. was a guy who was crankin hard,,nothing worked on him, only choking him out. i didnt feel compitent using arm bars or wrist lock take downs, cause we only had dt refreshers twice a year,,like you said, not enuff,, we had firearms once or twice a month,,thats great, but i cant remember the last time an officer fired his weapon on duty,,it wasnt all that uncommon for the bad guy to get away during a ground fight from certain officers cause they couldnt subdue or lock them down,,the other officers where just meaner then crap and disabled people. granted we were a smaller pd, 30 uniform, but i rarely saw anyone using pr24 or straight battons,,mostly go hands on.

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            • #7
              I agree. I've only had one DT "refresher" class with my dept since I've been there (2 years now). The instructor and I are friends and he knows about my enthusiasm about DT and martial arts- so he used me for the "training dummy".

              The sad part is out of about 40 officers in my department- only two showed up.

              The class he taught was PPCT, which is what I was trained with. I also throw in a medly of judo, chin-na, and krav maga which I've picked up from friends and martial arts instructors over the years.

              Training is very important. Even if you don't know "much" you should train as often as possible on what you DO know so that it does become second nature.

              The instructor mentioned above and I took an advance DT class together. We were training with rubber knives and while the instructor of that class was talking my co-worker came up behind me (playing around) and tried to get me in the standard "hostage" hold with the knife. I wasn't even thinking when I tucked my chin down and then seeing in my peripheral vision that his head was close enough I snapped my head back and popped him in the lip- sending him backwards.

              Another problem getting adequate training at my department is lack of equipment such as floor mats and striking pads. Anytime I need some we have to either ask the local school (and the mat they let us use is so old it's not much better than carpet) or the local Sheriff's Dept (as long as they don't have a class planned for it). Know of anywhere I can get some of this stuff relatively cheap? Maybe I can talk our training supervisor into getting some.
              You have no right to not be offended.-Neal Boortz

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              • #8
                Cheap training equipment

                Well honestly CHEAP and training equipment are oxymorons. I have had some success with schools donating blocking/tackling dummies which are great for strike padding. The mats are hard to come by unless you see a school upgrading to a new field house (like a JR college). They will usually be getting rid of mats that are too worn to serve their purposes.

                Carpet is EASY to get WITH padding. Just contact a carpet contractor who will gladly give you both when he is doing an installation. Double up the padding and you have a pretty safe area to do 50% take downs. GOOD LUCK

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by 72na55
                  Well honestly CHEAP and training equipment are oxymorons. I have had some success with schools donating blocking/tackling dummies which are great for strike padding. The mats are hard to come by unless you see a school upgrading to a new field house (like a JR college). They will usually be getting rid of mats that are too worn to serve their purposes.

                  Carpet is EASY to get WITH padding. Just contact a carpet contractor who will gladly give you both when he is doing an installation. Double up the padding and you have a pretty safe area to do 50% take downs. GOOD LUCK
                  Double padded carpet would probably be soft enough, but what about rug burns? Talk to local high schools and Jr. Highs about either picking up their old mats or maybe using them when their teams aren't training.

                  My experience with DT systems (I've trained in a few) is that most of the time your administration (and city/town/county) aren't really concerned about your abilities to properly execute the techniques. They're concerned about liability.

                  This explains the predominance of bu!!$h1t aikido based systems that are impractical, but look good to administrators and city attorneys. They know that without regular training, anything you're shown will be forgotten, or if you do happen to remember it... improperly applied. They dont expect you to use them, or even care for the most part if you do.

                  All they care about is this... Clearing the department of any culpability or liability in case of an excessive force complaint. The city attorney will say "Officer Friendly... was that how you were trained to subdue a combative suspect?" When you try to explain that wrist turning takedowns dont always work on larger, stronger men, he'll cut you off and say "So the answer is no??? Your Honor, it's clear that this officer did NOT use departmentally approved tactics." and will then try to throw you under the bus as far as any civil suits go.

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                  • #10
                    We do Monadnock. I am an instructor in the MEB, MDTS, and the PR24. We do some parts of the PPCT system which which seem to be a tad better than the standard MDTS. They are shown as an alternative to the techniques of the MDTS, but not tested.
                    Last edited by southladeputy; 07-23-2005, 03:50 PM.

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                    • #11
                      My department uses PPCT. We have a certified instructor on the department and we have an 8 hour refresher every 3 months. I like PPCT, because the training is backed in court, which I don't think other DT courses have, or at least very few.

                      In the academy I also learned Koga and ground grappiling, which was taught by Shane Pitts (that guy is a phenominal fighter) for those of you who haven't heard of him.

                      I have found in the street though that PPCT is easier and more practicle to use. Koga has some searching techniques that I like, but some of the techniques in Koga are similar to some of the techniques in PPCT, however the takedowns are much easier in PPCT and tend to be more practicle.

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                      • #12
                        What does PPCT stand for???????


                        Sorry,but some of the initials I just have no clue what the hell they mean
                        Just shut your damn hole




                        Dead Souls-----They keep calling me

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Chiller
                          What does PPCT stand for???????


                          Sorry,but some of the initials I just have no clue what the hell they mean
                          Pressure
                          Point
                          Control
                          Techniques

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                          • #14
                            I thought Koga was basically another Aikido based crap system. In fact, it's one of the programs I had in mind when I made my first post. (incidentally, Shane Pitts made a living teaching "Koga" but he was originally a judoka who later took up jujitsu. I assure you that his fighting ability had nothing to do with his Koga training) Aikido takes entirely too long to learn well and is all about finesse (sp?). If you dont apply the techniques exactly right, and aren't relaxed while executing them, then you aren't going to be able to apply them correctly. God knows none of us are ever anything but relaxed and are always in complete control of our fine motor skills when that adrenaline surge hits us. Right?

                            I say this having studied Aikido for over 4 years too. So dont assume I speak without some insight into the art. Fact is that I wouldn't feel confident trying to use 90% of what I learned in Aikido on a "live" attacker.

                            If you want realistic and practical DT skills that dont require everything to be perfect and work most of the time on most of the people, get into a grappling art (Judo, Jujitsu, wrestling, Sambo) and secondly I'd say for defensive purposes (I specify "defensive" only because you dont want I.A., a city attorney, or a review board grilling you as to why you're dropping crooks with left hooks and round kicks) you'd want to at least practice some basic muay thai or boxing techniques as well. 90% of all fights may end up on the ground but they all start off with someone trying to take your head off lol.

                            Honest to God, I'd rather see anyone looking to train take up a proven art than to waste their time on some "too deadly for the ring or UFC" bu11$h1t. If anything crappy training sets you up to get hurt (at worst) and/or complaints filed on you because you had to resort to muscle and brute force when your Dim Mak techniques failed you. Good, proven training techniques will save you a lot of injuries, paperwork, and time getting second guessed by the pencil pushers.

                            I dont want to sound cynical, but I've seen good guys called in to I.A. because a crook got bruised up... after coming at them with weapons! Per our own (and I'd assume most of the free world's as well) "Use of Force" guidelines, anytime a weapon is involved, you're justified any level of response until the the threat ceases to be a threat any longer. Repeatedly, I.A. investigators expressed the concern about the city and the deparment being held liable over these incidents. Never once asking if the officer involved was ok. One of the guys I work with got into a fight with an inmate at the jail (inmate swung on him) and was in an all out brawl with this guy before he was able to restrain him and call for assistance.

                            Anyway, this idiot was bleeding and banged up after going tooth and nail with my co-worker, so the supervisors decided to send him to the Emergency Room to get checked out. I swear to you... Internal Affairs beat the inmate to the hospital! Meanwhile, the guy I work with was never even asked by supervision if he was ok, and he was forced to set in the Sgts' Office for over two hours... waiting for someone from I.A. to show up. Not once was he offered the chance to seek medical attention at our employees' clinic.

                            Thankfully he was eventually cleared (after all kinds of threats, repeated interrogations, and whatnot) of using excessive force, but he shouldn't have had to have gone through that. In the end, the only thing that saved him was other inmates acknowledging that he'd been hit first. This officer was a tough guy, but had he been trained in a practical style (he had been through both Koga and SHIDO incidentally) he may have been able to subdue this guy without having to go to war with him.

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                            • #15
                              here in the uk we are trained in asp quikcuffs and captor spray and a few defence tactics based on ju-jitsu over 2 days every year,which isn't much,so i train weekly in other forms of martial arts,however the attitude has changed over the years and we can pretty much do anything we like to defend ourselves as long as it can be justified,a couple of years ago we weren't allowed to punch somebody in case it looked bad to the public.

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