7 BJs and Kwanzaa OK, but not Santa, or Christmas, or....

[nickg]

stupidity continues to run rampant. people need a good boot up their asses!!!!

http://www.tonguetied.us/

[CinaC]

What's wrong with seven blow jobs?

The only place religion has in a public school - be it Islam, Judiasm, Buddhism, Satanism, Wiccan, Christianity (oh, I'm going to get it now!), Kwanzaa (I'm not clear if Kwanzaa is religious, or quite what Kwanzaa is) - is in history class, discussing the impacts of it.

[ 12-09-2002, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: C in a J ]

[shooter1201]

quote:

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Sage Advice

Threats of legal action by the Florida chaper of American Atheists have not dissuade the city of Wildwood, Fla. from stationing two angels blowing trumpets in a Christmas display outside city hall this year, reports the Sumter County Times.

In a letter sent to the city, an atheist said he noticed the angels while driving through town last year about this time. “Angels are without question a religious symbol, and must be omitted this year and in the future,” wrote Greg McDowell.

Wildwood Mayor Ed Wolf and the city council there ignored the threat of litigation, however, and voted unanimously to display the angels again this year.

Wolf said if McDowell doesn’t like to look at angels, then he shouldn’t drive through downtown Wildwood.

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At least SOMEONE still has some cajones, though......

[ 12-09-2002, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: shooter1201 ]

[CinaC]

Yeah, Shooter, those athiests do have balls to stand up for what they believe in -- the Constitutional seperation of Church & State.

I'd also like to point out that I didn't start this thread.

[BrickCop]

You tell 'em CinJ!!!

Hey, isn't Santa Claus really SAINT NICHOLAS? Yet another Christian conspiracy no doubt.

I just saw a cardboard cut out of that sneaky Saint (right next to Frosty the Snowman) on Town Hall property!

Somebody call the ACLU, I'm offended!!!

[CinaC]

However you may feel when it's an icon of your own religion, what would you feel if it was an icon of another? Would you be offended if a public school sponsored a song praising Satan? Or displayed a symbol of the Wiccan faith on public property? What if, instead of a sign saying "Merry Christmas" across a door to a government building, it said "Praise be to Allah?"

If you wouldn't be offended by any of this, then fantastic. But of course the issue is deeper then being offended -- Thomas Jefferson coined the term "seperation of church and state", and it's quite clear that some people take that VERY seriously, and some people would rather ignore it all together.

I take it very seriously.

[Shaky & Blue]

quote:

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Originally posted by C in a J:
Kwanzaa (I'm not clear if Kwanzaa is religious, or quite what Kwanzaa is)

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Kwanzaa is a non-religious holiday created in 1966 by Dr. Maulana Ron Karenga in celebration of the "Seven Principles" (Nguzo Saba). It was created primarily for Americans of African descent as a social/political statement in opposition to the commercial nature of the Christmas holidays, which Dr. Karenga believed involved exploitation of and discrimination against African Americans.

Celebration of Kwanzaa does not preclude the celebration of other, more religious traditions around the holidays. It isn't intended to work "against" Christmas, but to remind people of African descent of the Seven Principles by which Dr. Karenga believed they should live their lives:

UMOJA (UNITY) (oo-MOE-jah) - To strive for and maintain unity in the family, community, nation and race.

KUJICHAGULIA (SELF DETERMINATION) (koo-jee-cha-goo-LEE-ah) - To define ourselves, name ourselves, create for ourselves and speak for ourselves.

UJIMA (COLLECTIVE WORK AND RESPONSIBILITY) (oo-JEE-mah) - To build and maintain our community together and to make our brothers' and sisters' problems our problems and to solve them together.

UJAMAA (COOPERATIVE ECONOMICS) (oo-JAH-mah) - To build and maintain our own stores, shops and other businesses and to profit together from them.

NIA (PURPOSE) (nee-AH) - To make as our collective vocation the building and developing of our community in order to restore our people to their traditional greatness.

KUUMBA (CREATIVITY) (koo-OOM-bah) - To do always as much as we can, in the way that we can, in order to leave our community more beautiful and beneficial than when we inherited it.

IMANI (FAITH) (ee-MAH-nee) - To believe with all our hearts in our parents, our teachers, our leaders, our people and the righteousness and victory of our struggle.

Those who observe the holiday claim they have millions of observers. That number seems to be exaggerated, as it is often quite difficult to find any kind of local observance of the holiday in US cities.

[Chief Wiggum]

I am going to demand that all public schools discontinue the use of the letter T because it looks too much like a cross and that could be considered religious.

[PelicanDriver]

C in a J,
There are a couple of points regarding Thomas Jefferson that are important.

He didn't consider himself an authority on the constitution since he had no part in its drafting. He was serving as ambassador to France at the time.

The context of the phrase "seperation of church and state" is an even more important issue. That phrase is contained in a letter to a Baptist congregation (Danbury, I believe) in which he was assuring them that the government would not interfere in the people's reigious activities. In other words, it was to assure them that they would be safe from the government, not that religion would have no influence on government.

The historical context of the establishment clause of the first amendment is also important. England had an official state religion, Church of England or Anglican. The Anglican denomination was also the official church of Virginia, and was supported by tax dollars. You could attend any church you wanted, but you were paying for the state church no matter what. That was the "establishment" the founders wanted to prevent, along with assuring that anyone could worship (or not) as they pleased.

[shooter1201]

What happened to the thick skin we Americans USED TO HAVE? We've been turned into a bunch of panty-bunching, foul-crying wussies.

SO WHAT if City Hall wants to have a CHRISTmas display, or schools want a CHRISTmas play?

America was founded on CHRISTian beliefs, not Islamic, Wiccan, Satanist or Aetheistic beliefs. While true that the colony of Rhode Island was founded as a 'safe haven' for NON-Puritan practitioners, they were all CHRISTian.

ALL the 1st Amendment means is that THE STATE cannot FORCE religion upon its citizens(such as King James I was doing in England ca 1619). It has NOTHING to do with City Hall displays, school plays or anything else left-leaning LIBERALS try to 'read into it'.

As the Eagle's song so aptly says Get over it!

[ 12-09-2002, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: shooter1201 ]

[BrickCop]

Other offensive things that I'll be complaining to the ACLU about:

The comedian Gibert GODfrey(voice of Duck in Aflec TV ads). His last name has G-o-d in it.

Johhny Carson has the SAME initals as Jesus Christ! Who does he think he is kidding?!Ok, so he's been retired for 10 years but his cult continues in re-runs! (I'm calling the FCC too!)

Seriously C&J, I really am with you. That "In God we trust" written on your US currency must be really offensive. Feel free to mail all your money to me, I'm here to help.

[CinaC]

quote:

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What happened to the thick skin we Americans USED TO HAVE?

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Uh, I'm right here, dude. Reminding people of the foundations of this nation.

quote:

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SO WHAT if City Hall wants to have a CHRISTmas display, or schools want a CHRISTmas play?

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If the attitude is, "so what if they do", then why not "so what if they don't?"

quote:

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America was founded on CHRISTian beliefs

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Shooter, you confuse the settlement of the continent by European settlers with the foundation of a secular nation by those who drafted the US Constitution.

They are NOT one and the same, no matter how some groups would like to claim that they are.

Are you familiar with the Treaty of Tripoli? It states quite clearly that the United States of America is not a nation founded on religious beliefs (even more importantly, it defuses the notion that the Constitution was drafted with the intent of making this a Christian nation). The Treaty says, in Article 11: "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." The treaty was ratified by the Congress and signed by President John Adams on June 10th, 1797.

quote:

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In other words, it was to assure them that they would be safe from the government, not that religion would have no influence on government.

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That's one way of looking at it. Jefferson was taking fire from religious groups who disliked his views of full religious liberty (even in this "enlightened age", certain people -- like a certain teacher/cop I could mention -- seem to bristle at giving Wiccans, Muslims, and other groups the Constitutional freedoms their religions are entitled too). Jefferson quite clearly showed what his views on religion and the government were in his response. Why is it so often that Jefferson is quoted favorably in pro-2nd Amendment debates, but as soon as the topic turns to this issue, he is dimissed?

quote:

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It has NOTHING to do with City Hall displays, school plays or anything else left-leaning LIBERALS try to 'read into it'.

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No, but it does have EVERYTHING to do with the intentions of those who drafted the Constitution in the first place. It does have EVERYTHING to do with the religious organizations that have succeeded in making this issue not about the Constitution but rather calling those who dare oppose them "complainers" and "whiners." And it has EVERYTHING to do with the Treaty of Tripoli, which to the total and complete annoyance of those same religious organizations WILL NOT DISSAPEAR if they pray hard enough.

quote:

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The Anglican denomination was also the official church of Virginia, and was supported by tax dollars. You could attend any church you wanted, but you were paying for the state church no matter what. That was the "establishment" the founders wanted to prevent, along with assuring that anyone could worship (or not) as they pleased.

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Massachussets was the last state to maintain an "official" religion. And it disestablished ... in 1833.

quote:

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That "In God we trust" written on your US currency must be really offensive. Feel free to mail all your money to me, I'm here to help.

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There is, unfortunatly, nothing I can do about that, and since I don't relish living in a box on the street, it's an evil I must deal with. I certainly don't trust in God -- I don't understand why God does what It does, and the mistaken beliefs that It loves us, or that It can be trusted (to do what, I'd like to know) are, to my religious beliefs, in error.

quote:

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As the Eagle's song so aptly says Get over it!

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Here's an idea, Shooter. Why don't you?

[ 12-09-2002, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: C in a J ]

[SpecOpsWarrior]

This thread is being moved to Various Topics.

Feel free to continue arguing in there.