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PLANE CRASH NOT TERRORISM

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  • Jeffrey
    replied
    I'm not saying that this was definitely a terrorist attack or an accident. We just don't know. We must remain vigilant but not paranoid. We will not know exactly what happened until the NTSB finishes its report. Just because the pilot dumped fuel does not rule out intentional sabotage. If a fire broke out, a pilot will often dump fuel in an attempt to prevent the spread of the fire and avoid an explosion if a controlled crash landing is feasible. I personally am leaning more towards the theory of wake turbulence. But until we are sure, we must treat it as a crime scene.

    Score one more for our men (yes men not boys!) fighting our war. It looks like a good portion of the Taliban was wiped out after today's bombings. No one has been able to yet confirm if Bin Laden was indeed inside of the area that they hit.

    Does someone out there know what happened to the 21st Century Hard Armor Corporation Website (http://21stcenturyhardarmor.com/)? Is it just their site that is down, or have they shut down permanently?

    Thanks!

    Leave a comment:


  • klar
    replied
    I am still convinced that this was just a simple plane crash. You can spout all you want to about this or another thing but sometimes planes do get tired and fall out of the sky it is a known fact. Even though the airbus is a reliable plane there has to be a first time when it fails somewhere to help progress it towards a even safer plane. It is something that will happen to any type of airline no matter how much we insect or oversee it. The only thing we can do is hope that the numbers of killed are less and less with each accident. To prove this was a accident the pilot dumped his fuel. If it was not a accident he would not have had time to dump.

    Klar

    Leave a comment:


  • Jeffrey
    replied
    NiteShift,

    At least it appears I AM doing much since I am being criticized!

    "If you are not criticized, you may not be doing much"- Donald Rumsfeld

    Great Quote!

    Leave a comment:


  • Jeffrey
    replied
    Dear NiteShift and other members of the law enforcement community,

    When I mentioned the Florida Supreme Court, it was merely just a comical mention of the court. I didn't think that mentioning it a total of four times would incite so much fuss over it. I am NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT obsessive (just a joke! )! I just thought I would try to brighten up the community on such a gloomy day with a little right-wing conservative political humor. Unfortunately, everyone seems to think that I just can't "release and let go." Florida still needs new judges to replace the current incompetent "crew" to help close the "loop-hole" in their state government. I mentioned Jeb Bush because it seems that if knocking the radical liberal FSC resulted in me being called a "Gore Supporter," maybe there was a mix-up as to the interpretation of whom I was referring to. Maybe someone looked at it and said,

    Leave a comment:


  • blondie72
    replied
    *Whew*, Jeffery, that was a mighty long post!

    Leave a comment:


  • Niteshift
    replied
    Your obsession with the FL S. Ct. is still comical. One reference might have been amusing, over and over just indicates an inability to let it go.

    And, for the record, nobody said you were talking about Jeb Bush, so I'm not sure where that "important clarification" came from.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jeffrey
    replied
    Niteshift & vbrenner, thank you very much for your replies. First of all, I would like to apologize for the spelling of Homo sapien. You must understand that it was late when I posted my posts. I have exams and term papers due this week and am just a little overtired.

    Let me quickly clarify a few things that were misinterpreted in my last post. First of all, Gore supporters do NOT knock the Florida Supreme Court. If you recall, the Florida Supreme Court was the court that tried to overturn a US Supreme Court ruling. This was when they somehow attempted to "throw out" the US Military votes over postage. According to a previous US Supreme Court ruling, all military ballots must be counted regardless of postage. They are also the court that tried to count the so-called "under vote." Again, if this would have been successful, then we would have needed manual recounts of the under votes in most states. This is due to the fact that many other states actually had districts with closer results than in Florida. Also, if you will note, I was referring to the Florida Supreme Court (made up of very liberal judges), NOT Governor Bush. In case you have not been able to tell yet (one example would be the indecisive Florida Supreme Court), I am a right-wing conservative! (I am also an avid supporter of Hugh Hewitt [http://www.hughhewitt.com] who is an attorney and law professor that hosts his own radio show on the Salem Broadcasting Network. For those of you who listen to him, Morning Glory & Evening Grace!) Enough said about that.

    Now, let me continue on to the important issue. This is to clarify the information on the number of accidents involving Airbus Aircraft. Since 11/6/83 (the first ever Airbus incident), a total of 78 incidents have occurred involving Airbus Aircraft. Of that, there have been only 6 incidents that resulted in fatalities (beside what happened on the 12th). I will quickly outline the six incidents for you.

    The first fatal incident of an Airbus Aircraft took place on July 12, 1989. It was in San Juan, Porto Rico. According to the NTSB, the following happened.

    THE AIRBUS A300 (AMERICAN FLT 699) WAS BEING PUSHED BACK BY A RAMP CREW IN PREPARATION FOR A SCHEDULED INTL PASSENGER FLT. WITNESSES STATED THAT THEY OBSERVED THE RAMP GUIDE (WHO WAS USING THE GROUND-TO-COCKPIT MICROPHONE) WALK BEHIND THE NOSE GEAR AT LEAST ONCE BEFORE THE ACDNT OCCURRED. SUBSEQUENTLY, AS HE WAS WALKING BEHIND THE NOSE GEAR AGAIN, HE STUMBLED & THE NOSE GEAR TIRES ROLLED OVER HIS UPPER BODY, WHICH RESULTED IN CRUSHING THORACIC INJURIES. RECORDS SHOWED THAT THE RAMP GUIDE HAD RCVD SAFETY TRAINING & WAS QUALIFIED FOR THE DUTIES THAT HE WAS PERFORMING.

    The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows.

    FAILURE OF THE RAMP GUIDE (GROUND PERSONNEL) TO FOLLOW NORMAL SAFETY PROCEDURES. HIS OVER CONFIDENCE IN HIS PERSONAL ABILITY WAS CONSIDERED TO BE A CONTRIBUTING FACTOR.

    The second incident took place on January 20, 1992. The case has not yet been completed and the preliminary report is all we still have to go on (which currently states absolutely [See, I even believe in absolutes!] nothing). In the Strasburg crash involving an Airbus A-320, there were 87 fatalities, 5 serious injuries, and 4 minor injuries.

    The third incident happened on December 12, 1998. This is the report published by the NTSB:

    On December 12, 1998, a Thai Airways Airbus A300-200 crashed in Thailand. The accident is being investigated by the Thai government.

    The fourth fatal incident took place on January 30, 2000. There were 169 fatalities, and 10 minor injuries. It involved an Airbus A-310. Here is what the NTSB reported on this crash.

    This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

    Kenya Airways flight KQ431 departed the Abidjan airport but did not gain altitude after takeoff. The airplane crashed into the sea about 2 km. from the end of runway 21.

    The air safety investigation authority is:

    Agence Nationale De L'Aviaiton Civile Mr. Laurent Kako, Investigator-in-Charge Abidjan, Cote d'Ivoire

    Fax 225 21 27 63 46

    Here's the information of the fifth incident involving an Airbus A-320. It took place on August 23, 2000. The incident resulted in the death of 143 Homo sapiens !! Here's the NTSB report.

    This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

    On August 23, 2000, about 1930 Bahrain local time (1630 UTC), Gulf Air flight 72, an Airbus A320-212, Sultanate of Oman registration A40-EK, crashed in the Arabian Gulf near Muharraq, Bahrain. Flight 72 departed from Cairo International Airport, Cairo, Egypt, with 2 pilots, 6 flight attendants, and 135 passengers on board. The airplane had been cleared to land on runway 12 at Bahrain International Airport, Muharraq, Bahrain, but crashed about 3 miles northeast of the airport during a go-around. The airplane was destroyed by impact forces, and all persons on board were fatally injured. Flight 072 was operating as a regularly scheduled international passenger service flight under the provisions of Sultanate of Oman Civil Aviation Regulations Part 121 and was on an instrument flight rules (IFR) flight plan. Night, visual meteorological conditions existed at the time of the accident.

    Preliminary examination of the flight recorders indicate the flight exceeded flap overspeed limits while climbing during the go-around. This was followed by a pitch down and several alerts from the Ground Proximity Warning System before the airplane impacted the water.

    The last incident happened on November 20, 2000 in Miami, Florida. The aircraft was an Airbus A300B4-605R. There was 1 fatality, 1 serious injury, 15 minor injuries, and 113 uninjured. Here is the NTSB report.

    This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

    On November 20, 2000, about 1222 eastern standard time, an Airbus Industrie A300B4-605R, N14056, registered to Wilmington Trust Company, and operated by American Airlines, Inc., as flight 1291, a Title 14 CFR Part 121 scheduled international passenger flight, from Miami, Florida, to Port Au Prince, Haiti, had a flight attendant receive fatal injuries during an emergency evacuation after the flight returned to Miami. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed at the time and an instrument flight rules flight plan was filed. The aircraft received minor damage and the airline transport-rated pilot, first officer, 6 flight attendants, and 105 passengers were not injured. One flight attendant received fatal injuries, 1 passenger received serious injuries, and 15 passengers received minor injuries. The flight originated from Miami, Florida, the same day, about 1149.

    The captain stated that both automatic cabin pressurization controllers would not control cabin pressure while climbing through 16,000 feet, about 8 minutes after departure, and that the forward outflow valve went to the full open position. About 11 minutes after departure, he stated to air traffic controllers that he was unable to control the pressurization and that he would need to return to Miami. He stated that during the return to Miami, the flight attendant call chime continually chimed erratically and the forward lavatory smoke detector sounded. Twelve minutes before landing, the captain told air traffic controller that he would not need any assistance. About 3 minutes before landing the captain declared an emergency with air traffic controllers and requested that fire trucks be standing by for the landing. He stated that after landing, the ram air switch did not depressurize the aircraft on the ground and that 45 seconds after landing, the aircraft did not depressurize. He requested that the fire trucks check the aircraft for fire. About 2 minutes after landing, the fire commander reported no signs of fire and stated they would follow the aircraft to the gate. About 1 minute later, the captain reported he had a fire and that they would evacuate the aircraft.

    Fire department personnel stated that shortly after the captain reported they had a fire and would evacuate the aircraft, the left front door of the aircraft "exploded open" and a flight attendant was ejected out of the aircraft and landed on the tarmac. The other doors opened and the evacuation slides deployed. They assisted the flight attendant on the tarmac and also assisted the passengers as they evacuated the aircraft.

    As you can see, only 4 of these incidents were actually crashes. There is only one fatal Airbus crash that involved an A-300. That was the SURAT THANI crash on December 12, 1998. Technically speaking, only two people have died in an A-300 crash prior to this tragic incident on the 12th.

    Airbus manufactures very reliable aircraft. For the entire history of Airbus, only 78 incidents have taken place involving their aircraft. This is incredible considering that an incident includes turnarounds for minor problems (For example: a broken air conditioner.). The NTSB documents any event that occurs while in flight. For comparison purposes, 1053 incidents involving Boeing Aircraft have occurred since 11/6/83. Granted, Boeing does have many times the number of aircraft as Airbus in service, but proportionally, Airbus has had fewer incidents.

    Once again, let's not create panic but still keep an open mind as to the possibility of sabotage. This is only the second A-300 to crash, ever! The timing was sort of odd.

    Once again I would also like to thank Niteshift for updating us on the small aircraft over the Mississippi. On November 12, I saw a crawler at the bottom of the FNN (Fox News Network for the Left Angeles Times [but that's another story!]) channel in the afternoon alluding to the report of three small aircraft "dumping" a chemical over several tugboats and barges. It thankfully seems to be nothing to loose sleep over (unlike exams and term papers!).

    Now that I have bored everyone with "just the facts," I will close this post.

    Until next time,
    Stay vigilant, stay low, and watch your back!

    Leave a comment:


  • ateamer
    replied
    I just heard it may have been wake turbulence from a heavy that preceded it on departure. Haven't yet confirmed it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike Tx
    replied
    I heard there have been 17 crashes since 88.

    Leave a comment:


  • FLLawdog
    replied
    The Airbus is a very dependable aircraft. Since it came into use in 1976, there have only been a small handful of crashes, with a smaller amount attributed to mechanical failure. The last one to crash was, I think 1998 and the reason was improper bolts used on the engine.

    Leave a comment:


  • shooter1201
    replied
    I just heard on FoxNews...BOTH engines found INTACT. ZERO evidence of bird stikes.

    Leave a comment:


  • shooter1201
    replied
    Not intentionally adding 'fuel' to any conspiracy theories, but....

    IF the plane had taken off ON TIME, its flight path would have had it over D.C. at the time of any 'planned' explosion.

    Leave a comment:


  • Niteshift
    replied
    Jeffrey,

    I'm not sure what your big gripe is with the Florida Supreme Court, but it appears that you are 1) a Gore supporter and 2) still pretty obsessed with something that happened a year ago.

    "homosapean"

    Must be the Colorado spelling. Here in Florida, all us dumb rednecks spell it homo sapien

    vbrenner:

    Yes, it is pretty much urban legend.

    "Two seemingly related instances supposedly involving crop dusters in Mississippi were of this shadow-jumping variety.

    On October 19, 2001, the crew of a towboat plying the Mississippi River near Rosedale reported being sprayed by a low-flying plane with a light white substance or mist. Both the FBI and the Mississippi Department of Health were called in to investigate -- the FBI to determine the origin and intent of the plane, the Department of Health to ascertain the nature of the substance. As a precaution, the crew was treated with Cipro, an antibiotic effective against anthrax, and quarantined for sixty hours.

    On October 22, a tiny Coast Guard post in Natchez, Mississippi (170 miles south of Rosedale), was reportedly dusted with fine white granules from a small plane. Two mysterious dustings within the space of days fueled concerns that yet another terrorist attack was underway.

    Both incidents turned out to be mundane and ill intent absent. The towboat that had reported being deliberately sprayed down the length of the seventeen barges it had been pulling had actually been the recipient of a salutation from a passing plane. Investigators believe they have located the pilot of that aircraft and have determined that the substance emitted was only smoke. Crop dusters, which use smoke as navigation tools, sometimes spray smoke as a greeting to those below.

    As for the Coast Guard post in Natchez, investigators found that the substance apparently was in the air before the plane flew over the area and was consistent with material often emitted by a nearby paper processing plant. The pilot of that plane -- which was not a crop duster -- just happened to be flying overhead and contacted authorities himself the next day."

    http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cropdust.htm

    [ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Niteshift ]

    Leave a comment:


  • ateamer
    replied
    This story about planes flying over the Mississippi releasing chemicals has been circulating for a couple weeks now. The only place I have seen it is the Internet, never in any sort of conventional media. I'm thinking urban legend.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jeffrey
    replied
    If you will recall the testing phases for both the GE engines used on the Airbus and the 777, the cowling was designed not to break open and explode even if a fan blade broke loose. I have seen dramatic video of the testing phases for both of these engines. To imitate a fan blade breaking loose in flight, a small charge was placed at the anchor point of one of the blades. The engine was then powered up to 110% thrust. Then a very lucky engineer received the honor of pushing the button that detonated the charge, in turn releasing the fan blade from its anchor point. The cowling bulged out as the blade went around, but no explosion happened.

    Once again, I am not ruling out an accident. It is too early to say either way. We need to let the NTSB (once again National Traffic Safety Board for the Florida Supreme Court) do their job and not panic into a mass hysteria. At the same time, we need to be vigilant and not let down our guard.

    One story that nobody seemed to cover much was about the three ("3" once again for the Florida Supreme Court. After Fox News reviewed the eyewitness reports again, it was determined that it was indeed 3. This means that no recount will be issued!) small airplanes that released some sort of chemical today (11/12/01) over several tugboats in the Mississippi River. The boat operators alegedly called the police, who in turn contacted the FBI. They determined that it was a harmless chemical. Witnesses described it as something looking like brown smoke that was dumped into the Mississippi. Was this some sort of practice run for something bigger in the future?

    Why didn't the media cover this story?

    Just a few more comments to let everyone ponder on.

    Leave a comment:

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