HR 218 & New Jersey?

[Chris in PA]

A question for New Jersey cops out there...

Now that HR 218 has been in practice for a bit, has any word come on down on how out-of-state (non-NJ) cops carrying their weapons in NJ will be handled? I could find no mention of it on either the New Jersey AG website or the NJSP website.

Essentially, according to New Jersey Code of Criminal Justice, 2C:39-3. "Prohibited weapons and devices"..

f. Dum-dum or body armor penetrating bullets. (1) Any person, other than a law enforcement officer or persons engaged in activities pursuant to subsection f. of N.J.S.2C:39-6, who knowingly has in his possession any hollow nose or dum-dum bullet ... is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree.

In this context, "Law Enforcement Officer" is either a Federal Officer, a NJ LEO, or an out-of-state LEO "on official, sanctioned business".

So, while HR 218 says I can carry in NJ, I gotta carry semi-wad-cutters (in my snubbie) or ball/FMJ to stay above board? And what is considered a "Dum-Dum" anyway?

Would non-hollowpoint expanding ammo like the Cor-Bon "Pow 'R Ball" or Federal Expanding Full Metal Jacket be legal for us non-NJ LEO's?

[apd158]

Nothing yet!

Nothing has come down from the AG's office on this yet....big suprise.
Probably wont for another year either. I would guess that they will amend NJS 2C:39-6 with regards to HR218 and exclude "out of state officers" from the prohibited ammunition requirement as well. That being said you'll be able to carry any hollow point ammunition....but again nothings in writing yet!!

So, while HR 218 says I can carry in NJ, I gotta carry semi-wad-cutters (in my snubbie) or ball/FMJ to stay above board? And what is considered a "Dum-Dum" anyway?

Dum-dum is the colloquial name for several types of modified ammunition for firearms. A Hollow point bullet is sometimes referred to as such. Normal jacketed ammunition that has had notches carved across the top is also called by this term. The effect of the latter is for the jacket to deform upon impact into chunks, along the cross indentation. This creates a relatively larger wound channel, with multiple exit points, and greater blood loss and trauma.

I'll keep you posted if anything comes down!

[Delta784]

Re: HR 218 & New Jersey?

Originally posted by Chris in PA
In this context, "Law Enforcement Officer" is either a Federal Officer, a NJ LEO, or an out-of-state LEO "on official, sanctioned business".

Does NJ law specifically exclude out-of-state LEO's from the definition of "Law Enforcement Officer"?

[Chris in PA]

Re: Re: HR 218 & New Jersey?

Originally posted by Delta784
Does NJ law specifically exclude out-of-state LEO's from the definition of "Law Enforcement Officer"?

I'll just quote the relevent law, and let you decide, 'cause I'm not a lawyer.

2C:39-3. Prohibited weapons and devices
g.Exceptions. (1) Nothing in subsection a., b., c., d., e., f., j. or k. of this section shall apply to any member of the Armed Forces of the United States or the National Guard, or except as otherwise provided, to any law enforcement officer while actually on duty or traveling to or from an authorized place of duty, provided that his possession of the prohibited weapon or device has been duly authorized under the applicable laws, regulations or military or law enforcement orders. Nothing in subsection h. of this section shall apply to any law enforcement officer who is exempted from the provisions of that subsection by the Attorney General. Nothing in this section shall apply to the possession of any weapon or device by a law enforcement officer who has confiscated, seized or otherwise taken possession of said weapon or device as evidence of the commission of a crime or because he believed it to be possessed illegally by the person from whom it was taken, provided that said law enforcement officer promptly notifies his superiors of his possession of such prohibited weapon or device.

(snip)

2C:39-6. Exemptions
Subsections a., b. and c. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 {Unlawful possession of weapons} do not apply to:
(1)A law enforcement officer employed by a governmental agency outside of the State of New Jersey while actually engaged in his official duties, provided, however, that he has first notified the superintendent or the chief law enforcement officer of the municipality or the prosecutor of the county in which he is engaged

You can get the on-line New Jersey statutes here.

[Chris in PA]

Re: Nothing yet!

Originally posted by apd158
The effect of the latter is for the jacket to deform upon impact into chunks, along the cross indentation. This creates a relatively larger wound channel, with multiple exit points, and greater blood loss and trauma.

So, as neither the Cor-Bon "Pow 'R Ball" nor the Federal EFMJ are designed to fragment, they should be okay, right?

I'll keep you posted if anything comes down!

Thanks!

[apd158]

Does NJ law specifically exclude out-of-state LEO's from the definition of "Law Enforcement Officer"?

No..... sorry for the confusion.

Until its changed, an out of state officer carrying off duty in NJ under HR 218 could be charged under 2C:39-3 (prohibited weapons) if they had hollow point ammunition in their weapon.

The way the prohibited weapons statute is written right now, an out of state officer who is not on duty and working in an official capacity inside NJ, may not carry any ammunition currently listed as prohibited in New Jersey. But once that statute is amended for HR 218 then "out of state, off duty officers" would be part of the exempt list of individuals who could carry the prohibited ammo.

So, as neither the Cor-Bon "Pow 'R Ball" nor the Federal EFMJ are designed to fragment, they should be okay, right?

Yep...they would be fine.

NJ Statutes- written by lawyers to be interpreted by lawyers.

[LAWCOP]

ACTUALLY THE term "Dum Dum" has NOTHING to do with hollow point ammo.

Back when the Brits were in control of India, they were having a particularly difficult time with a group of "thugees" who would drug themselves up and take quite a lot of killing to stop them. Much like we discovered with the Philipine Moros when the Army went to the .38spec from the .45 long Colt. (which brought about the adaption of the .45acp, but THAT is a different story)

In order to "fix" the problem, the Dum Dum arsenal in India came up with the Idea of removing the tip from the copper jacket exposing the lead core to contact the target directly when fired. This allowed the bullet to expand and/or break up instead of penetrating through cleanly, thereby dumping the bullet energy into the person instead of passing through. THIS had a much greater "calming" effect on the opposing "wogs".

THe TRUTH is, if there is ANY exposed lead on what would be the striking area of the bullet it would/could be defined as a "Dum Dum".
SO, carrying even the earlier referred to "wad cutters" could be defined as prohibited rounds.
If I had to go to "joisee" (something I pray I never have to do again) right now FMJ is the only "safe" way to go, and then if you need it and have a shoot through have the joy of expalining it is the STATE that makes such things epexpectd because of their assinine laws.

[Bodie]

Federal Law over rides anything NJ law. There is nothing they can do about a peace officer that qualifies under 218 who chooses to carry in that state. Should they choose to they are going to make some officer a very wealthy individual.................................

[apd158]

LAWCOP- thanks for the clarification on the DUM DUM rounds I found and copied the first paragraph of the encyclopedia definition for my post but at 3am I couldn't get myself to read the rest.

Federal Law over rides anything NJ law. There is nothing they can do about a peace officer that qualifies under 218 who chooses to carry in that state. Should they choose to they are going to make some officer a very wealthy individual.................................

Bodie....I could be wrong (wouldn't be the first or last time) but my understanding is State laws may supercede Federal laws if the State requirement is more restrictive and protective for its citizens than its Federal counterpart. Case in point, the Assault Weapons Ban, although the purchasing of these weapons are now legal under federal statute, NJ law still prohibits the possession of them. If this was appealled to the federal level by anyone charged with violating this NJ statute any decision by the higher courts would be based on the more restrictive state statute...not the federal one.

[Bodie]

State Law cannot supecede Federal law. They cannot be more restrictive unless in the case of safety or crime. Where is the crime for a peace officer who is qualified to carry doing so in any state ?

[Chris in PA]

Originally posted by Bodie
State Law cannot supecede Federal law. They cannot be more restrictive unless in the case of safety or crime. Where is the crime for a peace officer who is qualified to carry doing so in any state ?

But the question isn't whether I can carry my off-duty weapon in the People's Republic of New Jersey. HR 218 clearly states I can. But 218 says absolutely nothing about ammunition or high-cap magazines for out-of-state LEO's. As such, there's simply no federal stipulation in HR 218 about ammunition to supersede NJ state code.

Originally posted by LAWCOP
THe TRUTH is, if there is ANY exposed lead on what would be the striking area of the bullet it would/could be defined as a "Dum Dum".
SO, carrying even the earlier referred to "wad cutters" could be defined as prohibited rounds.
If I had to go to "joisee" (something I pray I never have to do again) right now FMJ is the only "safe" way to go, and then if you need it and have a shoot through have the joy of expalining it is the STATE that makes such things epexpectd because of their assinine laws.

Oi! That is pretty asinine indeed. Of course, the question is, do NJ cops actually arrest people for the "hollowpoint & dum-dum law" for carrying lead semi-wadcutters (assuming everything else is legal, and they're not exempted from the hollowpoint/dum-dum ban).

But, based on your definition of what a Dum-Dum is, the Federal EFMJ and Cor-Bon "Pow 'R Ball" should be legit in the Garden State, because neither round has exposed lead prior to striking the target.

Of course, finding someplace that even sells the Federal EFMJ round appears to be rather difficult (Cheaper Then Dirt doesn't list it, and the only places I've been able to find sell only to FFL holders or agencies, and not individual officers)

[apd158]

Bodie let me appologize first...I'm not try to start an argument I think I made this alot more confusing then it had to be.

Where is the crime for a peace officer who is qualified to carry doing so in any state ?

It ins't....I'm all for it!!! I was only trying to answer Chris's original post in reference to prohibited ammo. Until our AG's office comes down with something amending the definition of "law enforcement officers" to included "qualified out of state LEO's" in the prohibited weapons statute (2C:39-3) any out of state officer would not be allowed to carry this ammo. Even HR 218 does not protect an out of state officer from this more restrictive NJ law. Could an out of state LEO be charged with this at this time?...Yes...Would he?...Not by me!!

NJLawman.com

Thursday, July 22, 2004 10:18 p.m.

WASHINGTON - Today, in a Roosevelt Room Ceremony the bill which we have come to know simply as H.R. 218 was signed into law by President George W. Bush.

Also known as the "National Concealed Carry for Cops" legislation and the "Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004," this new law allows law enforcement officers to carry their weapons while off duty between states.
It is expected that guidance on this law will come down from the State Attorney General's Offices, and we strongly recommend that officers wait until such time before carrying their weapons over state lines.

We would like to offer some warnings for all to heed.

First, when in another state you will be subject to the use of force laws of that state. Additionally, the laws of arrest, self defense, and firearms in other states will be different and will govern any actions taken.

HR 218 will not be a defense to possessing hollow point bullets, carrying a weapon on a school campus, carrying a prohibited weapons, carrying a weapon in a casino, etc. Some of these scenarios are illegal in certain states. Know HR 218, but also know the laws of that state in which you intend to carry!

Second, and this goes double for uniformed officers, you have to identify yourself. You need to identify yourself by badge and by word. Officers who work primarily in uniform are the worst at this since they are not accustomed to identifying themselves at scenes. The uniform takes care of that. When identifying yourself, use the loudest voice possible so witnesses will hear you and be able to corroborate your account of the incident later.

Below we have provided a basic breakdown of the new law. We again caution that guidance should be sought by your agency and/or the Attorney General's Office before acting on the new HR 218 law. Consult the administration from your own agency regarding HR 218 before acting on it. Also, at the bottom of the page we have provided a link which will bring you to the actual text of the new law.

[apd158]

Oi! That is pretty asinine indeed. Of course, the question is, do NJ cops actually arrest people for the "hollowpoint & dum-dum law" for carrying lead semi-wadcutters (assuming everything else is legal, and they're not exempted from the hollowpoint/dum-dum ban).

Yes...if we arrest someone for possession of a firearm and its loaded with hollow points they would be charged with that as well.

Would we do that to another officer (out of state)? NO

But I don't suggest shooting someone in NJ until out of state LEO's are exempt from that requirement....attorneys would have a field day with that!

[Chris in PA]

Originally posted by apd158
Yes...if we arrest someone for possession of a firearm and its loaded with hollow points they would be charged with that as well.

But, assuming I'm not a LEO, but I'm allowed to carry a weapon in NJ, would I be arrested for loading a snub-nose revolver with, say, .38 Special +P 158-grain lead semi-wadcutters?