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  • Zamboni
    replied
    Summerrain,

    I didn't say that anyone here said that were big bad white cops but that is something we hear a lot from minorities. And there are no minority groups at my dept or female groups. Of course we only have two female cops and one minority but that not due to any racial bias. I live in a community that is at least 80% white. Of the rest probably 15% are hispanic and the rest a smattering of whatever. Plus its largely mormon and by mormon doctorine women can't work outside the home. As such, the testing pool which we must hire from is usually composed of about 99% white males.

    I just think that these groups do nothing but bring out resentment amongst those who get excluded. I remember how angry I was when I tested with Seattle PD in 1996. At the beginning of the video test we were told that the following additions would be added to your score:
    + 5% if your a minority
    + 5% if your female
    + 5% if you live in King County
    + 5% if your a Seattle reserve
    + 5% if you are a veteran

    I was a white male who had just graduated college in a different state so I got none of those bonues. Actually I don't have a problem with them giving hiring preferences to reserves or veterans but I think its ridiculous that a female or minority can be hired ahead of me even if they are less qualified because of some bonus points. Everyone should be hired on merit not some special consideration.

    Leave a comment:


  • Niteshift
    replied
    Here's a good example of how these groups help unify law enforcement:

    This is a press release from the NE National Black Police Assoc.:

    April 13th 2001

    Again we are outraged as the news of yet another incident of Police Brutality and Loss of Life spreads across this nation, In the City Of Cincinnati, Ohio an unarmed 19 year old Black Youth named Timothy Thomas fell victim to the violence. After a Police Officer Recognized Mr. Thomas as a person with several outstanding Motor Vehicle Violations a chase ensued culminating in the Death of the Victim.


    As always a fear for the life of the Officer was the given reason for the termination of Mr. Thomas, while a Police Tape of the Incident clearly shows this officer running after the victim, into an alley, are not actions normally associated with fear for one’s personal safety and yet again no weapon was found.


    This is the 14th Black man to die this way in the City of Cincinnati, Ohio, The forth since November 2000, Last night on Night Line City Mayor Charlie Luken stated that there are clearly Racial Problems in his city but did not express any regret, and offered no solutions to the problem.


    The National Black Police Association Northeast Region joins The Grand Council of Guardians in New York, The 100 Blacks in Law Enforcement also in New York and The Black United Front in Cincinnati Collectively Condemns this violence and Asks the Federal Government to vigorously Investigate this phenomenon as to promote a Nationwide Police System that doesn’t extinguish precious young Black Lives.

    Thank you for your Consideration

    President David Daniels III

    National Black Police Association

    Northeast Regional President



    This officer was acquitted of all charges later on.

    Does this sound like healing or hate being promoted?

    Leave a comment:


  • Niteshift
    replied
    If you quote me, you're either talking to me, about me or using what I said as an example.

    Unless you qualify it otherwise, the norm is that you are addressing the material you are quoting. You didn't qualify anything.

    In the future, you might want to make it clear.

    However, even presuming you were addressing the remark in general, read what you actually quoted. I simply said there shouldn't be a double standard. Period. Do you think there should be a double standard?

    "And as far as exclusion is concerned, I've never seen where any of these groups mentioned specifically EXCLUDE person's of other races."

    And I never said a specific organization did. I said IF they do.......

    It's simple to me. I don't care what group forms their own club, but if it's ok to form a club for women, blacks, hispanics, gays or fat cops, it's ok to form one for only male or white cops and all those other organizations should support them in it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Niteshift: By using your quote at the beginning of my post was not to say I was directing my entire comment towards yours. And as far as exclusion is concerned, I've never seen where any of these groups mentioned specifically EXCLUDE person's of other races. If that were the case, then I'd feel there is no place for organizations like that in law enforcement also.

    Zamboni:

    I didn't see this mentioned anywhere in this thread "Other races automatically assume we are picking on them because they are black or brown and were the big bad white cop" Who here said they feel like that??

    Obviously from some of you guys posts, there are some serious race issues in your departments and departments that you know of. And these race-based organizations make the situation worse. Saying that I have no knowledge about this topic is wrong, perhaps we just don't have the same issues here as other areas do. As a member of this board, I don't want to be flamed for my views, but lets face it... we have a long way to go before race relations are no longer an issue in our society. No, I don't want to be treated any different than my white or male counterparts, I want the same opportunities and be expected to perform equally, otherwise I'm not qualified. Unfortunatly (you have to be realistic), every race and gender is not treated equally all the time and that is why our political leaders felt it necessary to take action against discrimination. You wouldn't see many minorities in law enforcement if it weren't for EEOC, and it would not be because of lack of qualified minorities. (Please don't say I took this post somewhere it wasn't going, because it was already taken there)

    [ 10-23-2001: Message edited by: Summer Rain ]

    Leave a comment:


  • Zamboni
    replied
    Originally posted by Summer Rain:
    If it's not ok to have an association that excludes everyone but white officers, IMO, it's not ok to have one that excludes them either.

    Is that to suggest that all female organizations such as IAWP (International Association of Women Police) or WIFLE (Women in Federal Law Enforcement) are sexist? Get a grip, I get so tired of seeing or hearing these type of arguments come up. Just as there are organizations that are state specific, so if I live in Califonia, should I feel discriminated against because I can't be a part of the Texas Peace Officers Association? The same goes for HBUC's (Historically Black University's and Colleges) Where students of ANY race or nationality can attend, but the curriculumn there may cover more culterly diverse subject matter than your other learning institutions. The purpose of organizations such as NOBLE and Latin American Police Association (LAPA) is to be a tool for officers' of certain backgrounds, whether they be black, hispanic, female, etc. to help them recognize and deal with certain issues that that particular group of people are more likely to be faced with. Arguments like this are such are waste of time to me. If these organizations are helping a female officer to become a better officer by teaching her street survival techniques that may be more crucial for a woman or if a black officer gains better knowledge of how to deal with cultural diversity in the community he patrols.. then what the hell is the problem? Why don't you place your time and energy someplace where it's most needed, and try helping race relations instead of taken our society backwards. Afterall, segregation was not our choice in the first place... lest thou forget.

    [ 10-22-2001: Message edited by: Summer Rain ]

    So lets see. If I as a white, male, cop wanted to start a white male cops group would you support it? We have issues. Other races automatically assume we are picking on them because they are black or brown and were the big bad white cop. We know that many department such as Seattle give hiring and promotion preferences to minorities and women so we have to work twice as hard to earn the job or promotion. We know that there is a double standard out there for what we can do and what a female or minority cop can get away with, at least in my dept. Example - We have 2 females cops out of about 100. One of the female cops has wrecked her patrol car 12 times now in seven years, 9 of which were her fault. She got no disciplinary action until her 8th wreck that was her fault. A male officer got disciplinary action after his second. Basically we know that the adminstration lets those two and the one minority cop we have get away with more because they are afraid they will get sued for sexual or racial harassment if they take action against them.

    My real point is that there should be no exclusive groups in police. We are all cops and thats all that should matter. These special groups just create resentment from the rest of the cops.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparky
    replied
    I was once told I could not run in a marathon fund raiser for breast cancer because I was a man.

    I decided that if they did not care enough about breast cancer to let me help them rasie money, then I would go somewhere else with my time.

    Leave a comment:


  • Niteshift
    replied
    "Is that to suggest that all female organizations such as IAWP (International Association of Women Police) or WIFLE (Women in Federal Law Enforcement) are sexist?"

    That was a question........which led to your next comment:

    "Get a grip"

    Maybe you should get a grip. You asked a question, then started berating me before you even heard the freakin answer.

    I didn't say those organizations were sexists, nor did I say the race based ones were racist. If you saw that, it was written somewhere else then it was written by someone else and you shouldn't associate it with my quote.

    Now....... what I am talking about is the double standard that others have mentioned. If there were a White Male Police Assoc., there would be a lot of complaining. I'd like to know why it's ok for some groups, but not others?

    "Just as there are organizations that are state specific, so if I live in Califonia, should I feel discriminated against because I can't be a part of the Texas Peace Officers Association?"

    First, who said you can't? I have joined organizations in other states, like the Texas Assoc. of Hostage Negotiators, even though we have a similar organization in FL. You're making the assumption that you can't join.

    Second, state specific has some merit. Certification, pay and employment issues in Alaska are not the same as in Alabama. The difference is, that even if you were actually excluded from joing the Maine Police Assoc., you could move to Maine, become a cop and join. If you are excluded from joining based on race, you can't change that ever.

    Further, it can divide a dept. You have 2 guys in NYPD. Both can join the Patrolmans Protective League (or whatever it's called), but only one can join the assoc. for Hispanics. Where does that become right?

    "The same goes for HBUC's (Historically Black University's and Colleges) Where students of ANY race or nationality can attend, but the curriculumn there may cover more culterly diverse subject matter than your other learning institutions."

    I don't see that parallel at all. You just said people from any race can attend, so how does that have any similarity. That means people can CHOOSE whether or not they want that cirriculum.

    "Arguments like this are such are waste of time to me."

    But you jumped in anyway.

    "If these organizations are helping a female officer to become a better officer by teaching her street survival techniques that may be more crucial for a woman or if a black officer gains better knowledge of how to deal with cultural diversity in the community he patrols.. then what the hell is the problem?"

    If that were the case, I wouldn't care. I'm not sure what organization you are referring to, but most of these, like NOBLE, conduct little, if any training. Their aim is legislation and political actions, not training.

    You referred to the Latin American Police Assoc. How many classes did they conduct last year in your area? How about nationwide?

    "Why don't you place your time and energy someplace where it's most needed, and try helping race relations instead of taken our society backwards."

    Who in the hell are you to presume to know what I have or have not done in helping race relations? Where do you get off?

    I'll bet I've done more for relations in the Hispanic community than non-hispanic cop you personally know. I'm the one that took time to learn the language, to learn the culture.... that can talk about what was on Univision last night with them, because I watched it. I get requested to work their dances, weddings and gatherings.

    Maybe you should know something about the topic before you start your attack.

    "Afterall, segregation was not our choice in the first place... lest thou forget."

    And just whose choice was it? Who is segregated in law enforcement and by whom?

    Leave a comment:


  • nickg
    replied
    Originally posted by retired:
    So it is okay to have race-based organization within a law enforcement agency, EXCEPT white!!! Try and form a "White Peace Officers Asociation and see what happens!! See how long it lasts.

    Retired
    that's what i was saying in my previous post. NOBLE (National Organization of Black Law Enforcement) is ok, but substitute Natonal Organization of White Law Enforcement and you will see Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton on the 6:00 news denouncing such "racists" attitudes, especialy within law enforcement walls. as i said before, you can't have one and then talk out of the other side of your mouth about the other. and don't use the "diversity" card either. black/white/yellow/brown/red -- it makes no difference to the crack head gangbangers. and there should be no deversification among ranks in law enforcement. you are ONE without race/ethnicity/religion,etc. when you are working together towards a common cause!!

    Leave a comment:


  • retired
    replied
    So it is okay to have race-based organization within a law enforcement agency, EXCEPT white!!! Try and form a "White Peace Officers Asociation and see what happens!! See how long it lasts. Different race based organization within a law enforcement agency are divisive--period!! There will always be animosity from the other groups.

    So I suggest that you, Summer Rain get over it, and look upon LE as one group of people, not gender or race!!

    Retired

    Leave a comment:


  • SGT Dave
    replied
    Yeah, believe it or not, I support their right to exclude whoever they want, and make whatever exclusions they want unless they become subversive, which ain't going to happen. I’m sure they ARE bound, as a group, with concerns that “White LE” or “Hispanic LE” do not have, and I support them in their right to meet, fraternize, socialize, and discuss issues.

    I think this would be akin to trying to force homos into the Boy Scouts by court pressure. As long as they are not subversive, I don't care.

    I do see your point that it might get nasty if it were the other way around, but that is F****** POLITICAL CORRECTNESS in our society, which is a problem, and not the "Black Law Enforcement" community.

    Charlotte Mecklenberg has spent MILLIONS of tax dollars defending their school districting policy that excluded white students from certain schools (even if they were 25 minutes CLOSER) that was based on an old court order to end segregation, and they continued it EVEN AFTER A FEDERAL JUDGE told them to end it, that there was NO evidence that any black student was still being discriminated against and to end the policy.

    I could have saved them millions by asking one question : “Can a white student go to any school they wish?” No, then it’s race based discrimination. END IT.”

    I am NOT a closet racist-I am not even one of those who always say “I have good friends that are black…” We ARE equal, and I DON’T SEE COLOR, unless I’m giving a physical description, or seeing discrimination, or seeing REVERSE discrimination.

    We ARE, however, one color behind the badge, as stated earlier.

    Sorry for the length as usual, but I can’t explain my feelings on the issue without explaining.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    If it's not ok to have an association that excludes everyone but white officers, IMO, it's not ok to have one that excludes them either.

    Is that to suggest that all female organizations such as IAWP (International Association of Women Police) or WIFLE (Women in Federal Law Enforcement) are sexist? Get a grip, I get so tired of seeing or hearing these type of arguments come up. Just as there are organizations that are state specific, so if I live in Califonia, should I feel discriminated against because I can't be a part of the Texas Peace Officers Association? The same goes for HBUC's (Historically Black University's and Colleges) Where students of ANY race or nationality can attend, but the curriculumn there may cover more culterly diverse subject matter than your other learning institutions. The purpose of organizations such as NOBLE and Latin American Police Association (LAPA) is to be a tool for officers' of certain backgrounds, whether they be black, hispanic, female, etc. to help them recognize and deal with certain issues that that particular group of people are more likely to be faced with. Arguments like this are such are waste of time to me. If these organizations are helping a female officer to become a better officer by teaching her street survival techniques that may be more crucial for a woman or if a black officer gains better knowledge of how to deal with cultural diversity in the community he patrols.. then what the hell is the problem? Why don't you place your time and energy someplace where it's most needed, and try helping race relations instead of taken our society backwards. Afterall, segregation was not our choice in the first place... lest thou forget.

    [ 10-22-2001: Message edited by: Summer Rain ]

    Leave a comment:


  • nickg
    replied
    take an organization such as NOBLE and change it to NOWLE and see what an uproar that would cause. you can't have one organization while denouncing another in the process and NOT call it racist. i'm not trying to stoke any fires here....just an observation and opinion.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kaos
    replied
    Either I read his post wrong or the rest of you did.
    He said that
    they will allow non-black officer's to join
    and was just asking if anyone else had done so.

    Leave a comment:


  • DesertRat
    replied
    Originally posted by Pintobean:
    I'm not trying to make a mockery of the issue, nor make a statement in doing so

    Are you sure Sarge? Sounds like a good way to go from IAB Sargeant to Graveyards at the airport real quick. You looking for a transfer?

    Leave a comment:


  • Don
    replied
    While I've never worked for an agency that was large enough to have this type of an orginizaton I did work one area that had a "Latino Peace Officer's Association." The orginization was open to all officers of "chicano" descent from all agencies in the county.

    I thought the idea sucked back then and I think it sucks today!

    OBTW "Chicano" was THEIR word, not mine.

    Leave a comment:

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