Rant RANT RaNt

[Traffic Dog]

Since I live in Wisconsin I can hopefully shed some light on the situation here. Simply put there are two states here. The State of Wisconsin and the State of Madison. Please dont group us together.

[XMotorjock]

After reading the original post, I have only a couple of thoughts. First, even though this society was founded in large part by Christians fleeing persecution in their native countries, they were far-sighted enough to include in our constitution language that guarantees everyone will have an equal chance to worship or not, as they choose. The original post is certainly constructed from a christian point of view, but "In God We Trust" doesn't translate as "In Christ We Trust". God, Allah, Jehovah, Yahweh all refer to a single deity, just like the words "Dad, Daddy, Pop, Father" refer to a single figure in our lives, and if God is as loving as we seem to think he is, isn't there room in our country for all who worship, regardless of what they call him?

It's a fine line the Supreme Court walks when they interpret what was written. We've all been there, when someone tells you something and you interpret it differently than their intention. It's just that we can't go to the originators of these great concepts to ask exactly what they meant. So we try to muddle through as best we can, but even with our faults, we still occupy a place with the great societies of the world, and we've achieved this in less than 250 years! That's phenomenal compared to others who have come before us. Ditch the PC, but allow a little room for ideas a little different than our own. That's what created this society to begin with.

[Watchman]

"Exactly, separation of church and state."

"It is in our constitution, let's keep it there"

Perhaps you could show me the words in the "constitution" that say "separation of church and state"....

Apparently, your version of the constitution is different than the one I've been reading. Have you actually read it, or are you depending on some elses interpretation of it ?

[bob]

Exactly, separation of church and state.

It is in our constitution, let's keep it there. If the majority of Americans were Muslims or Buddhists, would you want Praise Allah! posters in your children's school halls? or Buddha is king? I would not.

My God is almost certainly not going to be the same God that you worship, even if we are both Christians. And, i would not want my teachers throwing some Primitive Baptist rhetoric in the head of my child.

If you start to tread on the Constitution a little bit, you pave the way for more corrosion than any of us want....IMO.

[kirch]

Just because an individual chooses not to believe in God (or Allah, or Yahweh, or Buddha, or Vishnu or whatever) does not mean that the person doesn't accept a higher authority. It's just that the higher authority isn't some omniscient, omnipresent being. That higher authority can be society as a whole. The higher authority I answer to is the greater good of humanity, as set forth by my peers.

Choosing to believe or not believe in a deity has nothing to do with nationalism. I will support and defend my country to the best of my abilities. But I won't do it because someone's idea of a supreme being thinks it's right. I'll do it because the society I belong to believes it's right.

Villains throughout history have used religion as a justification for wars and atrocities more than any other reason. Keep religious beliefs and nationalism separate, if you ask me.

[Zamboni]

Originally posted by MMcCall:
What some folks forget is that the Constitution guarantees freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. No one's forcing you to be a Christian, or a Muslim, or a Sikh.. but if your neighbor is, well.. deal with it.
.

The problem is that Christians aren't willing to deal with me or others being aethiest. They are constantly at my door trying to convert me, they get angry if I refuse to participate in a group prayer at a football game or other function, they mock me when I refused to say a prayer during my high school graduation speech where I was valedictorian. You guys can be Christians if you want. Just let me believe in what I want. I won't stop you from doing your thing if you'll quit treating me like **** for not doing yours.

[kenh12]

When children are raised with no sense of a power higher than their own, you end up with a society of selfish, whiny, adults. Adults who are unwilling to sacrifice themselves or smaller facets of themselves to causes or beliefs greater than their own needs or desires.

I would wager that today's younger generations have a far higher percentage of atheists among them than generations past. I am all for freedom of thought and expression but understand that when people begin to see themselves as the highest authority (accountable to), you find a lot fewer people out there who are willing to think and act outside of their little domains.

It used to be that people enlisted, prayed, pledged allegiance, fought, flag-waved, supported, helped (all not necessarily in that order) because they felt they HAD to as citizens contributing to a cause or a belief in a nation much larger and greater than their own selfish wants.

To remove prayer or even the word "GOD" from public schools is just one more step towards further homogenizing a society into a nation divided into a thousand pieces.

Enough of people who've lived high on the hog for the last thirty years, just doing whatever is right for them or their group. How about just doing what is RIGHT.

You don't choose when to be American...you either are or aren't. Get out wave a damn flag and be a part of something much more important than whether Joe Whoever is offended by living in a nation that affords him/her with more than many others in this world will ever experience.

Bleeding heart ungratefuls make me wanna puke...and by the way by praying to God, it doesn't mean it has to be a Christian God, God is a word which applies to all forms of religion...so when you pray to God, pray to YOUR God and be happy you live here.

ken h

[Valor55]

Students are doing better on SAT's because the SAT's have been watered down every year to meet lower expectations.

Public schools are great and that's why private schools are being indundated and have long waiting lists. The booming homeschool trend is also because public schools are exceptional at educating.

My wife taught in the public system in one of the richest counties in the country in one of the best funded school districts in the country. With all that money they were completely incapable to do anything but imporve self esteem by lowering expectations. Only the most gifted and self motivated children get out of the system with anything resembling education. BTDT, it's broke. Big time.

As for the original post our schools could only benefit from religion. When my state was a colony I would be jailed for my particular faith and my pastor executed for it. The goal of the First Amendment was to prevent the government from using religion as a tool of oppression as it was previously. Nowhere in the constitution is there mentioned a "Separation of Church and State." In fact it prohibits limiting the free exercising of it.

[Mike Tx]

Originally posted by Thoroughly Incompetant:


Who said a school has anything to do with making a person a dumbass in every respect?

Going strictly by test results, students today are smarter than any other generation since the S.A.Ts began.

Perhaps you could expound upon your rather vague statement...

Seems like you are backpeddling. I'd explain it to you, but I don't like wasting my time.

[Cheese Whizz]

Originally posted by Mike Sullivan:

Then why are schools consistantly turning out dumasses in every respect?

Who said a school has anything to do with making a person a dumbass in every respect?

Going strictly by test results, students today are smarter than any other generation since the S.A.Ts began.

Perhaps you could expound upon your rather vague statement...

[Guard Dog]

Originally posted by kirch:
I actually thought less of the Madison school board after they reversed their decision. Make an informed decision and stick by it, I say. Then let the chips fall as they may. If a majority of people strongly disagree with your decision, they'll replace you in the next election with someone more to their liking.

Bull excrement!!! The Madison School board was way off base for even thinking about not saying the Pledge. Madison,WI has been a cauldron of liberal activism for as long as I can remember. As far as I'm concerned the board memebers that originally voted to stop saying the Pledge are a bunch of commie bedwetters and should not have any position of authority in the schools.

Thanks for correcting the details. I heard it on a local Chicago call in show and may have gotten two childish complaints mixed. There was however one district that did suspend the Pledge because a girl felt that there was not "liberty for all" and some gutless board members caved into her opinions.

[ 10-18-2001: Message edited by: Guard Dog ]

[kirch]

Found this forum today and this is only my second post, so I was hesitant to weigh in on so serious a topic. But, what the heck, in a for a penny, in for a pound, my grandmother used to say.

I agree with a lot of what Guard Dog says -- I had my flag out on 9/11 and it only came down once -- so I could teach my son's Cub Scout troop how to display, raise, lower and fold it. I don't take any issue with someone wanting to show national pride or patriotism with red, white and blue, proud to be American signs, flag pins, etc.

I can, however, comment on the situation in Madison. I live and work here and can tell you exactly what that situation was about. It wasn't because someone thought there wasn't liberty and justice for all. It was because it mentions God, and the school board, concurring with past decisions, felt that having a school-sponsored pledge with those words in it crossed the "separation of church and state" line.

TI was right -- the words "under God" were added in the middle of 50's-era McCarthyism. If the school recited the original Pledge of Allegance, I'd be the first in line to support them.

I actually thought less of the Madison school board after they reversed their decision. Make an informed decision and stick by it, I say. Then let the chips fall as they may. If a majority of people strongly disagree with your decision, they'll replace you in the next election with someone more to their liking.

[MMcCall]

What some folks forget is that the Constitution guarantees freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. No one's forcing you to be a Christian, or a Muslim, or a Sikh.. but if your neighbor is, well.. deal with it.

As far as removing the flags and lapel pins.. isn't this protected by the First Amendment? I find it hard to believe that in these times, if you refused to remove it, you wouldn't have a rippin good harassment/wrongful termination suit on your hands.

[FLLawdog]

How is that considered "State sponsored religion"? No one is telling anybody to worship a certain deity, but what's happened is that a bunch of self righteous do-gooders have taken it upon themselves to step on everyone else's Rights to free expression. So what if that expression is on a school billboard or on a City's garbage trucks. The message is "God bless America", not "Bless God, America, because it's the National Religion".

[Mike Tx]

Originally posted by Thoroughly Incompetant:


Shools are there to show how we do things, and teach us the facts, they're not there to tell us which story book is the right one.

Then why are schools consistantly turning out dumasses in every respect?