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  • retired
    replied
    Well I'll enter my two bits worth. If someone doesn't want to be an American, I don't care, hell, I suggest they leave the country! Either you are an American, or you aren't, there is no two way road. This crap about who was here first may have had some validity 200 years ago, but not now. None of us were there then, and none of us had anything to do with what happened 200 years ago! I have a zero guilt complex!

    Retired

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  • Wannabe2000
    replied
    Don't stop them now it's getting good.

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  • RCSO-7S05
    replied
    First of all to Sparky, I apologize for the all caps. It has just been a bad habit for me. I will attempt to remind myself to not use them always.


    Now back to the topic:

    Niteshift the parent complained because she said the teacher(my mother in law) had no right to put her hands on her child. She threatened to sue the school board, thus she was fired!

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  • Niteshift
    replied
    "The residents of the separate nations would not pay federal income tax to the American government"

    Then would you pay for services from the US, such as defense or the air traffic control system? Or would you have your own military?

    "The U.S. Supreme Court and the Nations Supreme Court would be equal in law."

    Then the court idea is doomed from the start. You can't have both courts be equal. If there is a conflict between the two, there would be no way of resolving it. One must be superior or the two nations must be ENTIRELY seperated.

    "but was always ignored by the invaders."

    I think I've been polite, but if we're going to start using labels, this isn't going to go far.

    "Think of it as the present relationship with Mexico; the Native American nations would be another country, but confined within the present borders of America."

    Ok, I'll buy off on you being totally seperate, but I do mean totally. Retain your citizen ship if you like, but if you won't be paying taxes and not subject to the legal system (leaving any who would do business with you at the mercy of a court in which their interests are certainly not at the front), then I'd severe ALL services and allow you to negotiate them, as a soverign country, like any other country does. You could ask for foreign aid etc, but as a seperate nation, you shouldn't expect a common defense, health system (like the CDC or NIH etc) or anything else if you're not paying for their existence.

    "On the other hand, let me say, if the invaders had the right to take it, I've got the right to take it back."

    Except that you are forgetting something important Jim, it was never yours. It may have belonged to an ancestor of yours, but can you say, beyond any reasonable doubt, that if the "invaders" hadn't come along, you would have inherited it? Can you say that some other tribe would not have conqured yours and driven your tribe from it? Could it have changed hands several times by now?

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  • Jim Burnes
    replied
    Sorry about the delay; family details.

    The residents of the separate nations would not pay federal income tax to the American government, because they would be legal residents of the separate nations. Such tax would go to the nations.

    Citizens of the nations who chose to live outside the borders of the nations would be subject to American federal tax. Just as it is now.


    The U.S. Supreme Court and the Nations Supreme Court would be equal in law. This is because the nations would be in fact, separate from the American Federal Government. You are considering that the nations would hold an inferior status, as like states to Federal level. But what I am saying is, the Native American nations would be exist as totally separate political units.

    We would make it formal. What has always existed on this land, but was always ignored by the invaders.

    Think of it as the present relationship with Mexico; the Native American nations would be another country, but confined within the present borders of America.

    ///////

    When stolen property is found, it is never left in the possession of the thief. If possible it is returned to the owner. That's a fact of English common law which for vague reason, is forgotten where our home is concerned. Logic dictates most land can't be returned, but there is still enough for our nations to settle into.

    Now, comes into play the the special Eurocentric concept of Might Makes Right. Of Manifast Destiny, et al. On the other hand, let me say, if the invaders had the right to take it, I've got the right to take it back.

    /////

    I would reply to the question regards nomadic tribes (they not having original land to recover), but which tribes? All tribes had land of some kind to claim, even the Whalers had some open ocean space and dry land too for a little produce...

    Jim Burnes

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  • Niteshift
    replied
    I'm very curious about the income tax question. Would it be paid?

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  • Sparky
    replied
    I think he means like a dual citizenship. Like a "nation in exile".

    They live in the US and are subject to all our laws, etc...but they are also citizens of a certain other nation and also subject to theirs.

    You can live on "the res" I guess and it would be like living in a foreign country in many respects, and when "off the res", you'd sort of be a "citizen at large"...maybe have certain types of "diplomatic immunity" (which forms of already exist).

    Or am I following this correctly?

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  • Niteshift
    replied
    Work with me slow Jim........

    I understand about paying taxes where you are at, but I want to know will you pay US income tax..you know, the ones due April 15th?

    Also, you said the Indian court would work "with" the US Supreme Court. Is that to say it would be equal?

    Lastly, not trying to be flippant, but being first doesn't always mean you get to keep something. If I live in an all white neighborhood, can we exclude blacks because we were here first?

    And what of the nomadic tribes that didn't own land? How do they now claim to have been taken from them if they didn't claim owenrship in the first place?

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  • sub-inspector
    replied
    Sorry for going slightly off topic. I had read in one of the news papers that a Judge actually ordered to juvenile offenders (I think their crime was related to some race,colour etc.) to watch the movie "Gandhi" (Columbia Production, starring Ben Kingsley).

    For us Indians that movie is always a good one, but I don't know how US citizens feel. And secondly can a US judge order punishments like these. In India, a judge can imprison a person, but not make him watch movies !!!

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  • Jim Burnes
    replied
    Originally posted by Niteshift:
    [i

    I'd like to know why? Blacks have no expectation that only blacks will handle enforcement against them etc. Why is your case different?

    Walk me through this Jim. Would you be required to pay income tax? Will your courts fall under the US Supreme Court as the state courts do?

    Our case is different in a most fundamental way: We are the original people on this land. Our societies were set thousands of years prior to 1492 (and 1776).

    All other ethnic groups, races, whatever, came from somewhere else. In the case of Black Americans, they can't legally claim to be soverign to this landmass, in that they originate elsewhere. They, and all other American citizens have no option to make claims in that regard.

    (ok, beat me with a stick Niteshift, but that's the awful truth that Americans can't accept )

    If it makes the readers of this post feel better, plenty of other indians "beat me with a stick" too.

    As to taxs, people who live within a nations borders will pay tax, just as it is done now. If I buy gas in TX, I am assessed a tax. But I live in OK, so I am subject to property tax here. My income tax would however be collected by the nation to whom I belong, if I lived there.

    Roadways, waterways, rail and air routes; upkeep and rights of way would be the responsibility of the nations.

    We maintain our own now. The process is in some ways now in effect, without the acknowledgement, which I guess would cause a political mess.

    Our present court systems is good, the US Supreme court would deal directly with the Nations Supreme court.

    The nations would have to ditch the IRA inspired tribal councils, which were a rubber stamp for America interests. But the replacement would be in the best interests of the people.

    See? I am not advocating seccession, because we were not a part of America, being forced in via an historically corrupt doctrine of discovery, of which no indian nation was consulted. Having always been apart from America (and reminded of that every God#### opportunity for 503 years) no matter how white or how Christian we became, I am simply stating that the time has come to make the separation official.

    Have I made this matter more clear? or muddled it up?

    Jim Burnes

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  • Jim Burnes
    replied
    Originally posted by NorthernProtector:


    ...what's the difference if the First Nations want to do the same?

    Northern Protector,

    Thanks for that! America sees us a little differently, and are a little uncomfortable with histoy. This is not like Burnt Church, but the prospect of confrontation is always just hovering about.

    Jim Burnes

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  • Niteshift
    replied
    "The absurdity of the refusual to honor purchase contracts is a reflection on those people only."

    And I'm certainly not saying that all tribes would do that, but I have to guess realisticly that there will be more than one of them too.

    "But the enforcement action would be overseen by the first nations who reside within that nations borders. Legal questions would be worked out between the states and /or Federal government (exactly what happens now between states and federal)."

    I'd like to know why? Blacks have no expectation that only blacks will handle enforcement against them etc. Why is your case different?

    Walk me through this Jim. Would you be required to pay income tax? Will your courts fall under the US Supreme Court as the state courts do?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jim Burnes
    replied
    Originally posted by Niteshift:
    I'm asking questions, much of it based on what I've already seen. I've seen problems with the idea of a soverign nation. I understand that all tribes do not work the way some around here have and I'm willing to listen, but I want to hear real answers too. Real answers to specific questions. I want to know if I'm simply seeing it wrong or being sold a bill of goods.
    \

    Actually, Niteshift has not taken it out of context, I really mean to see the nations separate from Federal government.

    Using the nation close to you, their chief has been tossed out by the tribal council for various infractions. Those planes and trips were his political demise. The absurdity of the refusual to honor purchase contracts is a reflection on those people only. That is not honorable. They also will not honor mutual support agreements to enforce laws. That's them.

    I am Cherokee, up here, I know for a fact all law enforcement agencies support each other and back each other up...no foolishness. Our problems with rights, water ways and tax codes are worked out in court rooms. Tribal police and Marshals work closely with all other agencies; No egos involved. Same with the Keetowah and the Qualla Boundary Cheorkee in NC. We are a soverign nation of original people and are comfortable with the responsibilities that come with that status.

    I (and all other NA) are not in a position to renounce one citizenship over another. Politically, it would be wrong. Although my forefathers never asked to become citizens, the law was passed making them so, em masse in 1924. Up til then, individual indian could become citizens if they gave up their culture. But even during that time (1790 to about 1865),we were driven off lands, forced out of our Christian churches and our newspapers and schools closed. Now, we are citizens and living in lands that do not belong to us. Even the reservation was somehow, through politics disbanded in 1907 when OK became a state. Yet we remain a contributing force within America.

    Yes, American federal laws and statues would remain in place (because of the huge amount of case law in existance), the Major Crimes Act would remain. But the enforcement action would be overseen by the first nations who reside within that nations borders. Legal questions would be worked out between the states and /or Federal government (exactly what happens now between states and federal).

    Please keep in mind, as I do, that we existed prior to the founding of America. We did not need to overthrow English rule, the European settlers did.

    By clear international law, we are still soverign. Congress can't disband countries, which existed prior to America, the Senate is the only arm that can deal with us by treaty, and treaties do not expire of old age if either party upholds it side.

    Call me a madman But this is such a complex goal, so scary that I get called many names, by other American Indians I must say, it does sound bad to declare this position. But it is time to start the process.

    Jim Burnes

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  • Niteshift
    replied
    I'm not taking anything out of context, I'm asking questions.

    He wants a total lack of US govt. control. No state has that.

    If I violate a federal law, the FBI or whatever federal agency has that law in their purview will investigate, arrest and put me on trial. I will not be investigated, arrested and tried only by Floridians or whites. That is different from what I'm understanding Jim to say.

    Also, soverignty is not as simple as you're making it sound. The chief of one of the tribes here in Florida flies his private plane into the US, from South America, and lands on the reservation without having to go through Customs like you and I would. Why? Because he is the head of their Nation. I find this to be wrong, especially for the purposes he's doing it for.

    Let's not forget when the Seminole tribe decided to shut down I-95 until tool booths were built in response to their being denied permission to build casinos.

    Or a not uncommon practice around here of buying a vehicle and taking it onto the reservation, then stopping payment. Repo men can't come on the reservation without permission and none have ever been given permission.

    I'm asking questions, much of it based on what I've already seen. I've seen problems with the idea of a soverign nation. I understand that all tribes do not work the way some around here have and I'm willing to listen, but I want to hear real answers too. Real answers to specific questions. I want to know if I'm simply seeing it wrong or being sold a bill of goods.

    Leave a comment:


  • NorthernProtector
    replied
    Originally posted by Niteshift:
    "2. 100% soverignity for all first nations.
    3. Separation from US Government control."


    Would you be renouncing your US citizenship?
    If you want to be soverign, making your own laws and governing yourself, and have no US govt. control, it sounds to me like you would have no use for it.
    Nite I think you are taking Jim's comments totally out of context. Let me ask you this?

    Are individual states soverign and separate from the US Government? Some things yes...other no, however they have the power to make and enforce their own laws. No on seems to see anything wrong with that...what's the difference if the First Nations want to do the same?

    Leave a comment:

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