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Sth African Policing - At What Cost ?

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  • Sth African Policing - At What Cost ?

    Reading an article in an Australian newspaper recently, I was shocked to learn of some incredible statistics regarding policing in Sth Africa. Perhaps any Sth A. members can comment on the following points and their accuracy.

    * Since apartheid ended, there have been on average 220 police officers killed each year.

    * One third of the officers killed this year, having been shot, execution-style, in the back of the head.

    * Sth A. police officer is 10 times more likely to commit suicide than a civilian.

    The article goes on to say that the deaths of police officers have "...become so mundane that it is barely noticed by the public...Two officers died when robbers ambushed them and opened fire with shotguns, an AK-47, and a 9mm pistol. The killings got a couple of paragraphs in most South African newspapers."

    I'm stunned.

  • #2
    Now that we've helped to destroy the South African government, isn't it just great over there? Peace & safety everywhere! The murder rates have gone down.

    Yes, I've known about it for quite some time now. I'm angry that we helped to destroy South Africa in the name of apartheid -- All we did was increase the murder rate by 1000%.

    South Africa is a war zone. It is extremely unsafe over there, particularly if you leave the urban cities (then you're taking your life in your own hands).

    Comment


    • #3
      Forgive me but I am a little confused here...

      Me Again: Are you saying that you find the concept of apartheid acceptable?

      While of course it saddens me to hear the statistics that Jack posted it sickened me as well to read about apartheid. The fact that it was allowed to continue for so long is beyond belief to me.

      [ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: goodgirl ]
      "They want the federal government controlling Social Security like it's some kind of federal program" ~George W. Bush, November 2, 2000

      Comment


      • #4
        Posted by goodgirl:
        Me Again: Are you saying that you find the concept of apartheid acceptable?
        No, I'm not saying that at all. On the contrary: Humans were not meant to be enslaved by each other, neither by race nor by class. But South Africa didn't have slavery, like the United States had. They had class distinctions and race distinctions (aka apartheid).

        If you are giving me a choice between having a society that is distinguished by class lines and racial lines verses having the murder rate increase by 1000% (coupled by anarchy, lawlessness and tribal wars outside the cities), I choose the former.

        Under these unwarranted circumstances, which do you choose?

        Comment


        • #5
          "They had class distinctions and race distinctions (aka apartheid)."

          Darn, you make it sound almost benevolent. An entire race of people (the majority) required to have identification on them at all times, told where they could work, when they could work, and were paid signifigantly less than their white counterparts, had to pay more taxes than the whites so that they barely paid rent. Blacks were arrested if they did not have their passports on them and their family never notified of their whereabouts. How can you possibly put apartheid in such benevolent terms??

          Every act of protest against the government was documented and used against them. Any speaking out against the horrible conditions they were force to live under was subject to investigation. Extensive computer files kept on every single one of them and access to "white" areas severely limited.

          You want scary statistics? Try these on for size http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/...ures/table.jpg

          I can not say that I am happy with how things have turned out...but there is nothing that will convince me that there are any circumstances where the atrocity of appartheid should have been allowed to continue unhindered.

          [ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: goodgirl ]
          "They want the federal government controlling Social Security like it's some kind of federal program" ~George W. Bush, November 2, 2000

          Comment


          • #6
            Posted by goodgirl:
            I can not say that I am happy with how things have turned out...but there is nothing that will convince me that there are any circumstances where the atrocity of appartheid should have been allowed to continue unhindered.
            You're right, apartheid should not have been allowed to continue unhindered.

            But the way it was done has caused and is causing thousands upon thousands of deaths among the black Africans. I cannot condone this, regardless of the aspirations to end apartheid.

            Sacrificing thousands of Africans to end apartheid is not the price that should have been paid. It is not soldier against soldier. Thousands of civilians are being murdered.

            As the slaughter continues and will continue, is it worth it?

            [ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: me again ]

            Comment


            • #7
              The South African government had numerous opportunities to end appartheid in their own way, instead they found ways to better keep the black population under control through use of technology.

              If the South African government was destroyed it is because they were not a government worth preserving. It is a shame that there doesn't seem to be something in appartheid's place that can deal with it's end but that is not the fault of those that stood against it.

              You can't keep such a large segment of the population under slavery like conditions for so long and not expect some sort of back lash when they are finally allowed some freedom unfortunately.

              I guess my main objection to what you are saying me again is this line "I'm angry that we helped to destroy South Africa in the name of apartheid -- All we did was increase the murder rate by 1000%."

              What exactly would you have proposed we do? Sit back and do nothing? Well we tried that and it didnt work. We also tried placing embargos that were a joke and that didn't change anything.

              I guess my biggest question is what you think we should have done instead? How would you have handled the situation better?
              "They want the federal government controlling Social Security like it's some kind of federal program" ~George W. Bush, November 2, 2000

              Comment


              • #8
                I would not have forced the country to become socialist/communist through economic embargos, thus causing the country to collapse economically. This method has caused the black on black violence to rise by a thousand fold, to include thousands of murders in the various ongoing tribal wars.

                I am against anti-apartheid methods that induce genocide. Genocide is not an acceptable casuality rate in the effort to bring equality.

                Comment


                • #9
                  You answer only what you would not have done, not what you would have done. Economic embargos were essential in ending appartheid and unless someone else can show me an alternative that would have accomplished the same thing then I can't see how there was any choice.
                  "They want the federal government controlling Social Security like it's some kind of federal program" ~George W. Bush, November 2, 2000

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    In the name of stopping apartheid, do you condone the current murderious casualities that are being incurred, even as we speak?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Of course I do not condone what is happening now. However you have failed to provide even one viable alternative to the actions that were taken.

                      Should we allow people to continue to be oppressed because we fear what may happen if they are treated as equals rather than slaves?

                      [ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: goodgirl ]
                      "They want the federal government controlling Social Security like it's some kind of federal program" ~George W. Bush, November 2, 2000

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Posted by goodgirl:
                        Of course I do not condone what is happening now. However you have failed to provide even one viable alternative to the actions that were taken.
                        My failure to provide an instant solution to apartheid is better than implementing a plan that leads to a 1000% increase in the murder rate.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          "My failure to provide an instant solution to apartheid is better than implementing a plan that leads to a 1000% increase in the murder rate."

                          I didn't ask for an "instant solution" after all the economic embargos were a long time coming and hardly had an instant effect.

                          You have failed to come up with any solution. You criticise the actions taken and yet agree that apartheid was not something that should have been allowed to continue unhindered. Yet you can't figure out what could have been done differently even with the benefit of hindsight.

                          Sure sounds like you are blaming the wrong people to me. You criticise those that implimented the economic embargos while all I can see is that the South African government brought this upon themselves.

                          Yes, it is a shame that violence is so prevalent there. Yes it is a shame about this 1000% statistic you keep whipping out. However I do not see allowing the atrocity of apartheid as an acceptable alternative.
                          "They want the federal government controlling Social Security like it's some kind of federal program" ~George W. Bush, November 2, 2000

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Posted by goodgirl:
                            You have failed to come up with any solution. I didn't ask for an "instant solution."
                            You said I failed to produce any solution to a question that you asked an hour ago. If that's not asking for an instant solution...

                            Tell ya what I'll do for you (because I like you). I'll consult with the heritage foundation and we'll begin a 2 year research project and I'll get back with you on it then.

                            Posted by goodgirl:
                            You criticise the actions taken.
                            A 1000% rise in homicides is just reason for criticism of the actions that have led up to it.

                            Posted by goodgirl:
                            Yet you can't figure out what could have been done differently.
                            I cannot find a solution in one hour to what has taken 200 years to develop.

                            Posted by goodgirl:
                            Yes it is a shame about this 1000% statistic you keep whipping out. However I do not see allowing the atrocity of apartheid as an acceptable alternative.
                            Are you saying that the rising casuality rates are an acceptable loss because apartheid is being battled?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I apoligize GG. I'll lighten up.

                              Comment

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