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Officers use less-lethal against knife wielding suspect: Still go to trial

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  • Officers use less-lethal against knife wielding suspect: Still go to trial

    Unbelievable, the race baiters and cop haters always cry about using less-lethal force even on lethal armed suspects. These officers did just that and are still going dragged through the gauntlet for it.

    Quick summary of the incident:

    1 Suspect who is a WW2 vet armed with a knife. Suspect is holding knife "over his head" and was within 8 feet of the officers and advancing.
    3 Officers. 1 holding a shield, 1 with a tazer, 1 with a beanbag shotgun.
    Suspect advances on the officers, tazer has no effect. 5 beanbags are fired at the suspect before the suspect finally drops the knife. Suspect dies due to internal bleeding from the beanbags. Officer who deployed the beanbags now on trial for it.

    A suburban Chicago police officer had better and safer options than to fire beanbags to subdue a confused, knife-wielding 95-year-old World War II veteran, a prosecutor told the court Tuesday at the outset of the officer's trial on a felony reckless conduct charge in the man's death.

    With all of their police equipment, training and "common sense," Craig Taylor and the other Park Forest officers didn't have to storm into John Wrana's room at an assisted living center on July 26, 2013, Cook County State's Attorney Lynn McCarthy said during her opening statements. They did so, though, and Taylor ended up firing five beanbags at Wrana, including the fatal one that struck his abdomen and caused internal bleeding, she said.

    Taylor's attorney, Terry Ekl, countered that Taylor did what he was trained to do to subdue a dangerous suspect who was coming at him with a knife. Wrana was determined enough that he kept coming at Taylor with a knife "over his head" until the final shot knocked it from his hand, Ekl told Judge Luciano Panici, who will decide the case.

    Taylor, 43, could face up to three years in prison if he's convicted. His trial comes amid heightened scrutiny of the use of deadly force by U.S. police departments, and there was a strong show of support by Taylor's fellow officers Tuesday at the courthouse in Markham.

    Unlike many criminal trials where there is a disagreement over exactly what happened, the prosecution and defense in Taylor's trial agreed on the basic facts of the case in their opening statements.

    Taylor was one of several officers dispatched to the facility where Wrana lived after a staff member reported that Wrana had become combative with emergency workers.

    Wrana had hit a staffer with his cane and was brandishing the cane and a 2-foot long shoehorn. After officers left the room, they soon returned, with one carrying a Taser, another carrying a shield and Taylor armed with a 12 gauge shotgun that shoots beanbags. It was then that Wrana threatened the officers and refused to obey their order to drop a knife he had picked up.

    One officer fired the Taser at Wrana, but missed. When Wrana moved toward Taylor with a knife, Taylor fired his weapon five times, according to prosecutors.

    All of the shots were fired from no more than 8 feet away, said McCarthy, who told Panici that the "optimum distance" of 15 to 60 feet is spelled out in training standards and reminded the judge that each "projectile struck the 5-feet-five, 150 pound Wrana at about 190 miles per hour.

    Wrana died from internal bleeding, according to the Cook County Medical Examiner's office, which ruled his death a homicide.

    One officer who showed to court in support of Taylor said that Taylor's arrest is confusing to other police officers.

    "There's an outcry now for less lethal force in dealing with subjects and he used less lethal force," said Mitchell Davis, the police chief in the nearby suburb of Robbins who once worked as an officer in Park Forest and said he knows Taylor. Davis said that while the incident had a "tragic outcome," he believes Taylor acted properly.

    As a result, he said, police officers are watching the case closely. But this case has not generated the kind of emotion that killings of unarmed black men, specifically in New York's Staten Island and in Ferguson, Mo. Though Taylor is black and Wrana was white, neither attorney suggested race played any role in the shooting. Another factor is that the case is so unusual.

    "This is so far afield from other cases that I don't think it will have any wide ranging effect on police or have be any kind of deterrent to on-duty misconduct," said Craig Futterman, a University of Chicago law professor who has studied and written about police abuse.
    Source: http://www.policeone.com/use-of-forc...g-of-armed-man

  • #2
    Uh, hmm. Well, the trial will bring out ALL the evidence, so that's a good thing. Just reading what's on the page ... 95 years old. It doesn't matter he could still cause serious harm or death. I just wonder if the beanbag was necessary. How about pepper spray his eyes full then shut the door until he calms down then cuff him and stuff him (on a wheel chair). But SHOOTING him with a bean bag??? I dunno ....

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by that's my hand View Post
      . But SHOOTING him with a bean bag??? I dunno ....
      So what are you going to do after you have already tried tazing him........and shot him FOUR times with a bean bag and he keeps advancing on you with a knife..........................????

      The 5th time stopped the threat by knocking the knife out of his hand...................



      Oh pepper spray is contra indicated in an nursing home or care facility due to the number of people with severe health problems and cross contamination issuse



      I guess you could use your night stick and beat him into submission----------------but I dont' know of any officer that is going to take a club to a knife fight.
      Last edited by Iowa #1603; 01-14-2015, 09:48 AM.
      Since some people need to be told by notes in crayon .......Don't PM me with without prior permission. If you can't discuss the situation in the open forum ----it must not be that important

      My new word for the day is FOCUS, when someone irritates you tell them to FOCUS

      Comment


      • #4
        Situations dictate tactics, and as Iowa stated, OC in a nursing home could have devastating effects. The officers attempted to use less than lethal force, to include the deployment of the bean-bag rounds. It's unfortunate the man died, and it is also unfortunate the man didn't drop the knife and stop advancing. Trying to figure this all out and come to a conclusion without being physically present at the incident is at best, an exercise in futility. Until all of the facts are in, I think I'll reserve making any judgments. My thoughts are with the officers. Stay Safe!

        Ski

        Comment


        • #5
          As the Chief of the Detroit Police said after the Garner grand jury decision - when you commit crimes or resist arrest, you take on the risk of getting injured or dying.
          Originally posted by RSGSRT
          We've reached a point where natural selection doesn't have a chance in hell of keeping up with the procreation of imbeciles.
          Why is it acceptable for you to be an idiot, but not acceptable for me to point it out?

          Comment


          • #6
            does this mean I have to add a tape measure to my duty belt?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Shush View Post
              does this mean I have to add a tape measure to my duty belt?
              ...either that or a Laser Measure to be deployed before you pop a bean-bag cap! Your choice!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Iowa #1603 View Post
                So what are you going to do after you have already tried tazing him........and shot him FOUR times with a bean bag and he keeps advancing on you with a knife..........................????

                The 5th time stopped the threat by knocking the knife out of his hand...................



                Oh pepper spray is contra indicated in an nursing home or care facility due to the number of people with severe health problems and cross contamination issuse



                I guess you could use your night stick and beat him into submission----------------but I dont' know of any officer that is going to take a club to a knife fight.
                I agree with the gist of what was posted in everyone's posts. I get it. I'm all about the officer over the criminal. I don't know what "moving towards" someone means. Does it mean he was leaning forward barfing on the ground from the repeated shots fired, just before the fatal one? I don't know. I see the case is going to trial and the defense and state agreed on the basic facts of the case, right? So, the trial will go on, and the jury will decide guilt or innocence. BTW, I don't have a night stick, but may have fired a 12 gauge a time or two, and if I couldn't put someone on the ground in the first beanbag shot from 8' away I'd have to take it to the pawn shop. C'mon Iowa, three officers, a 95 year old man that's wielding a shoehorn, brandishing a cane, and probably grabbed a plastic knife off his lunchtray which sits just atop his bed pan and puke trough.

                Still though, if the officers felt threatened after missing the Taser spread from 8 feet, and the other two officers presumably didn't have Tasers, the shield apparently wasn't effective, so at 8' and "moving towards" the threat is coming, blasting the guy (description: 95 years old, 5'5", 150 lbs) 5 times with a 12 gauge is understandable. Hat's off to the old grump, his senility got the best of him. Old age ain't for sissies!
                Last edited by that's my hand; 01-14-2015, 01:56 PM. Reason: added info

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by that's my hand View Post
                  ...BTW, I don't have a night stick, but may have fired a 12 gauge a time or two, and if I couldn't put someone on the ground in the first beanbag shot from 8' away I'd have to take it to the pawn shop. C'mon Iowa, three officers, a 95 year old man that's wielding a shoehorn, brandishing a cane, and probably grabbed a plastic knife off his lunchtray...
                  A knife in a falling 95 year old man's hands can still easily puncture a lung. Anyone who advances on officers with an upheld knife should expect to die. The real problem is that this no longer seems to be the common expectation for such an action.

                  The solution to this predicament is to simply avoid advancing on officers with weapons in your hands.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I agree, and I believe in the judged by 12 rather than carried by 6 rule....totally without any hesitation. You'll get no argument from me.

                    Just playing devil's advocate here, but how would you feel cooped up in a stinky room with a bunch of old men and women constantly ****ing their bed and hollering out gimme something to eat every 5 seconds day in day out. Poor guy's penis was probably on fire from the UTI he might've had for having been made to wear his Depends for the last 3 weeks. Who knows, the action might have been a police assisted suicide. Sorry, but just tryin to make light of it. The case will bear itself out. Everyone knows a knife is a lethal weapon and most realize you'll bleed out faster with a knife.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The issue is that the staff and other people who were there at the time did not see the 95 year old pick up a knife. They also claim that the 95 year old man was in a wheelchair and was only armed with a cane at the time of the shooting. I find it hard to believe that a 95 year old who needed a wheelchair or cane to hobble around was advancing with a knife held over his head, but stranger things have happened.

                      It'll all be sorted out during the trail.
                      Last edited by MrEpps; 01-14-2015, 02:26 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Fighting out of the blue corner, three big, bulging men, armed with, one 12 gauge, 3 service weapons, 3 collapsible batons, a shield, at least one Taser, 6 fists, 6 feet, 3 cans of pepper spray. Fighting out of the red corner, 95 year old great-great-great Grandpa, armed with a plastic fork, steak knife, three boxes of rice crispy treats, an old copy of the farmer's almanac, one walking cane, and a 24" shoehorn.

                        OMG, do realize this could be on next weeks SNL? Sorry, I know ... but seriously, the old timer's in a better place now.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by that's my hand View Post
                          Fighting out of the blue corner, three big, bulging men, armed with, one 12 gauge, 3 service weapons, 3 collapsible batons, a shield, at least one Taser, 6 fists, 6 feet, 3 cans of pepper spray. Fighting out of the red corner, 95 year old great-great-great Grandpa, armed with a plastic fork, steak knife, three boxes of rice crispy treats, an old copy of the farmer's almanac, one walking cane, and a 24" shoehorn.

                          OMG, do realize this could be on next weeks SNL? Sorry, I know ... but seriously, the old timer's in a better place now.
                          if were talking about bringing a sword to a sword fight here - I could almost bet his cane would survive and be intact while my ASP would collapse on me when I don't want it to. And a 24' inch shoe horn! That $h*t would be deadly!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MCAPO View Post
                            if were talking about bringing a sword to a sword fight here - I could almost bet his cane would survive and be intact while my ASP would collapse on me when I don't want it to. And a 24' inch shoe horn! That $h*t would be deadly!
                            How hard could 95 year old man who can barely walk swing a cane lol...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MrEpps View Post
                              How hard could 95 year old man who can barely walk swing a cane lol...
                              Sorry, but that's not the issue here. The knife is. Might wanna re-read the thread. What I'm posting is meant only as tongue in cheek.

                              Comment

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