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For all the people who say the police are becoming too militarized

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  • For all the people who say the police are becoming too militarized

    And to go along with PtownVAMike's thread:

    For all of the civilians on here who believe that the police are too militarized, I have one question for you.
    If a member of your family was trapped in a building where there was an active shooter, would you care whether the responding officers had outer vest carriers, "fully automatic" rifles, MRAPs or armored vehicles?

    Here in lies the rub:

    If you answer 'no', then you are not being internally consistent (at best) and being selfish ("the police should ONLY pull all of the stops if it is to protect something that I personally care about, if not screw it) at worst

    If you answer 'yes' then your are at least consistent, but pretty heartless that you wouldn't want your family member to have the latest tactics and technology on their side in a critical situation.

    Neither answer is a very good one

  • #2
    When Allison has an overdue library book and you have numerous SWAT officers show up with multiple vehicles It's overkill. ( It has happened. A knock on the door by Officer Friendly should be more than enough to suffice.

    When Tom goes on his shooting rampage and threatens to kill as many pigs as he can, he's now holed up in a school or hospital, well, it's time for everything to be deployed and also time for Officer Friendly to direct traffic.

    Comment


    • #3
      You know of an actual, verified case where SWAT was used to recover overdue library books?
      Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. - Ronald Reagan

      I don't think It'll happen in the US because we don't trust our government. We are a country of skeptics, raised by skeptics, founded by skeptics. - Amaroq

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by yorkshire ripoff
        All I have to say is...

        Feb.28,1997


        That is all.
        Or April 20th, 1999......

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ateamer View Post
          You know of an actual, verified case where SWAT was used to recover overdue library books?
          I've done some heavy Googling and I've found some cases where LE was sent to people's houses to recover overdue library books and people being arrested for having overdue library books, but have found zero confirmable usages of SWAT.

          Comment


          • #6
            Silly question here, but just WTH is "Militarized"? A few days ago I fell during a hike and messed up my ankle, about 1/4 of the way down a steep mountain, and more than 2 miles from where I was parked. I couldn't put any weight on it and assisted by some other hikers, the county fire department was contacted. Since a 4+ mile round trip with a litter would have put responders out of action (on a non-life threatening injury) for hours and could have caused other more serious injury(s), the FD choose to respond with a helicopter borne paramedic. Helos? Paramedics? Where did these options come from? Hint: Prior to the Vietnam War and advances in battlefield medical care, the typical response to any kind of civilian injury in this country was a "Meatwagon" (aka: ambulance) and crew. Ambulance attendants had little or no medical training and their sole purpose was transport to a hospital.

            Law enforcement since the Vietnam war also benefited with the advent of better (read: portable) radio systems, body armor, and even such innocuous items as footwear. When I entered LE in the 1970's, it only took one hot chunk from a road flare (that found its way inside my uniform shoe) for me to follow the example of veteran officers and get a comfortable/practical pair of light "combat" boots. The advent of semi-automatic firearms in our ranks only followed trends set by gun owners in the community. Pick up any firearms related magazine, see the articles about "Modern Sporting Rifles" and "Tactical" add-ons available for home defense or competitive shooting and please explain to me how a police officer with exactly the same tool is "Militarized" when any other citizen is just an "Armed Homeowner"?

            Better flashlights with longer lasting batteries were technological improvements directly related to advances in manufacturing that benefited all sectors of society. The suggestion that we go back to the "good old days" when police officers had little safety equipment beyond a gun, a cheap flashlight, and an impact weapon (aka: Club), makes as much sense as providing them with as little training as was the norm at the time. Officers' knowledge of criminal law, search and seizure issues, civil liability, and discretionary uses of force were as minimal as the pay and benefits that were provided to them.

            In the nearly 40 years since I first became involved in law enforcement, a lot has changed in the arena of public safety and the changes have benefited those served as well as those providing the services. Many of those changes came about because of technological and training developments which occurred in the military. Those who complain about the idea that cops and other public safety employees having access to such things might well consider what other kinds of equipment they themselves routinely have access to. In my case, the presence of a paramedic and helicopter within just minutes of a cellphone call may not have saved life (mine) on this day, but I certainly appreciated the fact that these professionals, their tools, and the training they received prevented a painful injury (a minor fracture/major sprain) from becoming a crippling one.
            "I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken."

            Comment


            • #7
              Militarization of LE is the newest liberal buzz phrase. LE and the military share tactics and types of equipment (especially SWAT teams). A buddy of mine is a former member of the 19th Special Forces group, I am a lieutenant for our SWAT team. Both of our room clearing techniques are very similar and the equipment we wear is similar as well (kevlar helmet, heavy vest, plates and M4). LE has benefited from the lessons learned on the battlefield and the advances in combat casualty medical care. Military involved in CQB/building clearing has benefited from training with SWAT teams.

              I just participated in the Urban Shield SWAT competition. The majority of the news coverage was geared towards the militarization of LE, not the life saving skills we were working on (responding to active shooter, hostage situations and mass casualty incidents). As far as I'm concerned the negative media coverage is water off my back, my concern is that my boss will let it get to him during election time.

              Stay safe.

              Comment


              • #8
                If a member of your family was trapped in a building where there was an active shooter, would you care whether the responding officers had outer vest carriers, "fully automatic" rifles

                I would wish the family member also had this equipment

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by pulicords View Post
                  Silly question here, but just WTH is "Militarized"?
                  Originally posted by Country_Jim View Post
                  Militarization of LE is the newest liberal buzz phrase.
                  Militarization of the police. Hmm. I wonder if critics of such militarization are able to talk about the subject without using the term militarization. Not easily. These are the same people who confidently talk about "assault weapons": but since "assault" is a type of behavior rather than a type of hardware, they really don't know what they're talking about; if pressed, they might define an "assault weapon" as Obama did: "weapons of war on our streets" (or similar). Correct me if I'm wrong, but soldiers and cops who use scary-looking rifles don't call them "assault weapons" (because that term is a loaded political term like "affordable housing", not a proper name for a thing). In fact, when soldiers talk about a machine gun, they don't even call it machine gun (even though that is more accurate than "assault weapon": they call it an M4, or a SAW, or a [M]240, or whatever the name of the thing is. That's real. "Assault weapons" on the other hand, is a political creation.

                  I appreciate the background information in your post pulicords. It seems to me that there is no such thing as "militarization of the police".
                  https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/TROP.jpg

                  List of Islamic terror attacks in the last 30 days

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Country_Jim View Post
                    Militarization of LE is the newest liberal buzz phrase. LE and the military share tactics and types of equipment (especially SWAT teams). A buddy of mine is a former member of the 19th Special Forces group, I am a lieutenant for our SWAT team. Both of our room clearing techniques are very similar and the equipment we wear is similar as well (kevlar helmet, heavy vest, plates and M4). LE has benefited from the lessons learned on the battlefield and the advances in combat casualty medical care. Military involved in CQB/building clearing has benefited from training with SWAT teams.

                    I just participated in the Urban Shield SWAT competition. The majority of the news coverage was geared towards the militarization of LE, not the life saving skills we were working on (responding to active shooter, hostage situations and mass casualty incidents). As far as I'm concerned the negative media coverage is water off my back, my concern is that my boss will let it get to him during election time.

                    Stay safe.
                    I remember years ago our Special Operations Response Team trained, and trained with the military in joint exercises both at the USAFC and on our home turf. It was all about technique and critique that made us both better and more effective at what we do.

                    What concerns me most now is that the press, and other organizations have sunk their teeth into the meat of this new catch phrase, "militarization of police", and are using it to promote their own agendas like sensational journalism, ratings and worst than that, racism. Why is it always about things other than the real issues? Are the "sheeple" that ignorant that they can't see through all the smoke? Am I the only one that gets tired of the general public whining about things they really don't understand simply because it's popular to do so?
                    OK...rant over!

                    I say use whatever equipment and resources necessary to get the job done with the least amount of risk and/or injury, no matter what it "looks like" or how unpopular it is with the general populace! Stay Safe!

                    Ski
                    Last edited by codemanski; 09-16-2014, 09:41 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The media and lots of peole use the term because they're unhappy, but they don't know how to express the problem they have. So they latch onto what others have already started yelling. And in that process, lose all hope of having any credibility, along wth any opportunity to have a reasonable conversation about whatever their problem may be.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The media exists for one reason: profit. If they didn't get paid for doing it, not a single reporter would step up and volunteer his services to ensure that the information got out.
                        Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. - Ronald Reagan

                        I don't think It'll happen in the US because we don't trust our government. We are a country of skeptics, raised by skeptics, founded by skeptics. - Amaroq

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Country_Jim View Post
                          Militarization of LE is the newest liberal buzz phrase.
                          Actually, I believe those on the far right as well as the left have latched on to this phrase to create an issue to deal with a broader agenda. The book "Rise of the Warrior Cop" by Radley Balko provides a prime example of both oversimplification and fear mongering in order (IMHO) to promote the legalization of drug use for recreational purposes. While most in our society abhor the idea that substances such as cocaine, methamphetamine, and opiates be legalized, Mr. Balko suggests that the "War on Drugs" mentality is directly responsibility for a "warrior mentality" by cops. While I haven't (and won't) purchase his book, I've heard him speak and the misinformation and gross generalizations are abhorrent.

                          http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Warrior-C...eywords=police

                          Personally, I believe a real problem exists in that police administrators frequently attempt to solve problems relating to officer safety, the use of deadly force, and investigative ability through the purchase of equipment that (while useful) may be so costly as to prohibit the training that officers may need.
                          "I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Now they're using the term "assault vehicles"...this s**t just gets dumber and dumber....

                            Side note: Someone made a point on Facebook (I can't remember who) - why are we so concerned about Police having the latest and best equipment to keep them safe? Do we demand that firefighters go without SCBA's and turnout gear that protects them? Of course not. That's all this equipment is for - to protect the LE officers. The only difference is that they are getting it for cheap since it's already used.
                            Originally posted by RSGSRT
                            We've reached a point where natural selection doesn't have a chance in hell of keeping up with the procreation of imbeciles.
                            Why is it acceptable for you to be an idiot, but not acceptable for me to point it out?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Steve856
                              Ski, I totally agree with you that a worker should have the necessary tools in order to do his/her job safely. You have no argument on this from me.

                              However, you do realize that the general populace may find this equipment and resources as unpopular, right? This is the general populace that you are hired to serve. The people who are actually paying your salary. Why would you not care about their views and support?

                              Just like in any other business, I view it that civil servants should care about the clients that they serve. If they do not, then there would be no need to be ask (or “rant”) the following:
                              Steve,
                              If I didn't "care about" the populace I served, why would I spend over 25 years in their service?

                              That being said, my point is that most of the general public doesn't have an opinion one way or another with regard to the popularity of the equipment police use to complete their mission, as long as it is used in a manner to keep them safe. This rhetoric of "militarization of police" is being perpetuated by a minority of individuals for the sole purpose of advancing their agenda. Once again, the vocal few and the media has center stage. While I commend your willingness to "Serve and Protect", I would caution you to do so with an open mind. Stay safe!
                              Ski
                              Last edited by codemanski; 09-17-2014, 06:30 AM.

                              Comment

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