OH Man killed holding pellet gun (Race baiting card pulled out)

[WillBrink]

So far, seems a tragic chain of events with highly conflicting accounts (per usual) ranging from the man refused orders by police to they simply walked up and shot him in the back.

The man being a black of course fuels this one. The stand out of this story so far however, the witness who called police, telling them man as waving the gun and attempting to reload it, etc, telling news outlets he was an ex Marine, recants pretty much all of it:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/shopper-called-911-ohio-man-walmart-gun-chaos-story-article-1.1936449

Obviously, responding police have to go on what the dispatch tells them who's going on the 911 call they received. When they showed to find him holding this while responding to a "man with a gun" call, it didn't end well:

"Shopper Ronald Ritchie originally told police that John Crawford III was pointing a gun at children and adults when he picked the unloaded weapon off a shelf in Walmart, but now says "at no point did he shoulder the rifle and point it at somebody."



It appears like a chain of bad choices and human error leading to a tragedy, but without all the facts, it's impossible to conclude at this time (which means most have already made up their mind) whether the responding LEOs jumped the gun (no pun intended) or if it was a legit shoot.

Again, conflicting reports abound, between "he refused to comply with instructions" to "they walked up and shot him in the back"

The man being black, obviously adds to the leaps to conclusions of a racially motivated shooting by LE minus having all the facts in, but facts don't tend ot change the bias of people anyway. As always, the media doing its best to make it a racial story, and make sure to quote anyone willing to call it an "execution" by police:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/07/ohio-black-man-killed-by-police-walmart-doubts-cast-witnesss-account

There's just a lot of stupid in this tragedy, for example:

"Walking in the sporting goods section, he approached a shelf and picked up a MK-177 BB/pellet air rifle, which was already unboxed."

Really? Is it sold like that or just happened to be out of the box. If the former, in this day and age, should such a pellet gun be sold minus a box, or other tags, etc that make it clear it's a store item?

If the latter, in this day and age, would you walk around with that in a store full of people and really be clueless to the fact someone might freak out? Really?

There's various details like that which show very poor judgement, use of common sense, etc that easily could have avoided this event.

They are making a big deal of OH being a OC state as a defense, but what's that really matter when LE has to respond to such a 911 call?

I assume they have to approach exactly the same way.

[kermit315]

Yeah, I followed this a bit when it first came out, and pointed out the fact that we still have not seen any video and have not heard anything from the police's side of this other than they responded to the 911 call that came in. As you have said, many already jumped to conclusions.

[WillBrink]

Yeah, I followed this a bit when it first came out, and pointed out the fact that we still have not seen any video and have not heard anything from the police's side of this other than they responded to the 911 call that came in. As you have said, many already jumped to conclusions.

It's interesting that the family and defense attorney have seen it. Perhaps holding it back until investigation done and or a grand jury sees it?

I'm not clear what the protocols are for releasing of such a vid and who gets access to it, etc. Others here can comment on that with more accuracy/intel than I.

[just joe]

This incident happened about 20 mins from my house. No one is going to see the video until the grand jury views it. Sounds like the dumb *** who lied to the dispatcher needs to be held accountable in some manner, since his lies directly contributed to this guy's death.

[WillBrink]

This incident happened about 20 mins from my house. No one is going to see the video until the grand jury views it. Sounds like the dumb *** who lied to the dispatcher needs to be held accountable in some manner, since his lies directly contributed to this guy's death.

Must be a pretty tough sell to push that as it must be difficult to prove intent and they don't want people to not use 911 if they think they'll get charged with giving poor info. I know LEOs show up to calls dispatched from 911 that have very little resemblance to what they were sent there for, and 99.9% of the time, does not end up in such a tragic fatality. If it could be proven the guy intentionally misinformed the 911 dispatcher, then they'd have something to charge him with. I don't know what the specific charge would be and or if it differs state to state. Maybe a civil suit by the family? Again, if they win, it could back fire by people being unwilling to call 911 in the future, and what if he had indeed been there to kill a bunch of people with an AR? Per usual, being a complete idiot is still legal and sometimes stupid does get others killed.

That's a tough one without an easy answer. Anyone have an answer there?

[WillBrink]

Vid:

http://www.whio.com/videos/news/walmart-shooting-surveillance-video-captures/vCtB6Z/

Press conference, etc also there.

Answers a few Qs, and it's clearly just a chain of events that lead to his death. Pellet gun normally in a box. That answers a major Q for me there personally and that alone, likely would have prevented this event. I can see a possible civil suit for Walrmart on that one.

It's impossible to tell from the vid what time the LEO had for threat assessment and it looked as if he was taken by surprise as he comes around the corner, given a fraction of a second to make that shoot/no shoot choice, and took it. Do we know what, if any attempt prior to their meeting in the vid did LE attempt verbal or visual contact or was that it? If so, he had fraction of a second to decide.

Hate to say it, but this is also a clear example of being on the phone and paying little to zero attention to your surroundings is a bad idea. Minus the phone, he may very likely have noticed visual cues of alarm by others, or heard the one guy calling 911 (don't know the proximity of that, just a guess), may have noticed the police, etc. Wondering around swinging what's a dead perfect copy of a rifle while being "switched off" to your surroundings is a formula for a bad ending.

leisurely walking around with the gun as he was in that vid would have gotten my attention for sure.

"Marine" calls 911 and greatly exaggerates what he's seeing, which leads to LE showing up in condition red, and that's obviously a key part of the chain of this tragic event. But LE can make no assumptions the 911 call is 100% legit and accurate. Anything less gets people killed, LE and non.

Finally, am I the only one who found in very poor taste you had to watch an add for an air conditioner first to see a man get killed? There's a time and place to take advantage of 'net traffic, and that aint it. Just seems part of the overall statement of tragedy as entertainment and profit op.

[Carbonfiberfoot]

That is ugly. The muzzle was certainly pointed at the ground when he started taking rounds. I don't want to second guess the officer's decision to take the shot, considering the info given on the 911 call. I wish there was audio to see when he announced.

[WillBrink]

That is ugly. The muzzle was certainly pointed at the ground when he started taking rounds. I don't want to second guess the officer's decision to take the shot, considering the info given on the 911 call. I wish there was audio to see when he announced.

Yup. What's clear is the LEO had milisecond to decide and combined with the nature of the 911 call, I'm in no position to second guess his decision there.

[Carbonfiberfoot]

Yup. What's clear is the LEO had milisecond to decide and combined with the nature of the 911 call, I'm in no position to second guess his decision there.

It just hits close to home because I spent so many hours holding pellet guns in Wal Mart sporting goods sections myself when growing up.

When I was in about the 5th grade, I had a neighbor (who wasn't too fond of children) report that we were pointing rifles at people. In actuality, we were shooting cans (with a more than sufficient backstop and miles of woods beyond) at the back of our incomplete neighborhood. The responding officer (yes, only one officer) was very cool about the whole thing. I'm glad that things worked out better for me than this kid, and can only imagine how heartbroken his parents must be.

[L-1]

That is ugly. The muzzle was certainly pointed at the ground when he started taking rounds. I don't want to second guess the officer's decision to take the shot, considering the info given on the 911 call. I wish there was audio to see when he announced.

Actually, I see the "weapon" starting to swing up to a firing position when he starts taking rounds.

[Carbonfiberfoot]

Actually, I see the "weapon" starting to swing up to a firing position when he starts taking rounds.

From 0:47 on, he is swinging the gun forward and back. Like I said, considering what was reported, I am not second guessing the officer. The whole situation just makes me feel sick.

[WillBrink]

It just hits close to home because I spent so many hours holding pellet guns in Wal Mart sporting goods sections myself when growing up.

When I was in about the 5th grade, I had a neighbor (who wasn't too fond of children) report that we were pointing rifles at people. In actuality, we were shooting cans (with a more than sufficient backstop and miles of woods beyond) at the back of our incomplete neighborhood. The responding officer (yes, only one officer) was very cool about the whole thing. I'm glad that things worked out better for me than this kid, and can only imagine how heartbroken his parents must be.

Yes, but when we were kids, pellet guns looked like pellet guns not dead ringer copies of assault weapons, your mother or father was not on the phone 24/7 and the pellet gun likely in a box. Mine was, and so was the one he was carrying normally, but someone removed it from its box. My Red Rider BB gun not likely to be mistaken for an AR.

It's a sad chain of events that lead to this tragedy to be sure, and something of a statement on modern times too.

[NextofKin]

arent BB guns supposed to have orange caps on the muzzle as indication or does that vary by state law and company policy?

[Carbonfiberfoot]

arent BB guns supposed to have orange caps on the muzzle as indication or does that vary by state law and company policy?

I would not expect anyone to treat any firearm shaped object with a painted orange tip as anything other than a firearm. If that were the case, bad guys would just start painting the tips of their guns orange.

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes, but when we were kids, pellet guns looked like pellet guns not dead ringer copies of assault weapons, your mother or father was not on the phone 24/7 and the pellet gun likely in a box. Mine was, and so was the one he was carrying normally, but someone removed it from its box. My Red Rider BB gun not likely to be mistaken for an AR.

Yeah, I think this is the real problem here.

I have wondered what the effect would be of a law that said that if a weapon looks real you must abide by the rules that apply to handling a real weapon other than in a situation where everyone involved knows it's not real.