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SJPD ditches armoured transport vehicle

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  • #16
    The world has gone full blown stupid, and because of it blue blood will flow in the streets even more frequently than it does not.
    In God We Trust
    Everyone else we run local and NCIC

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    • #17
      Thats the problem when officers forget what they were trained to do and turn into weak backed politicians .Its going on everywhere sadly.

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      • #18
        The reactions are based on scary looks, not on actual functions of the equipment.
        Of course it's about appearance. That's why California has firearm restrictions based on LOOKS and not performance or function.

        Evil Black Rifles are evil because they are black and military looking... but a rifle that performs EXACTLY the same with a wood stock and different profile is legal.
        "I am a Soldier. I fight where I'm told and I win where I fight." -- GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

        "With a brother on my left and a sister on my right, we face…. We face what no one should face. We face, so no one else would face. We are in the face of Death." -- Holli Peet

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        • #19
          Originally posted by kermit315 View Post
          But if you have the ability to have more assets without further expenditure beyond maintenance, would you not want to increase available assets?
          Do you mean asset as in "makes it easier to do the job" or asset as in "another piece of gear on the books"? The MRAP is optimized for surviving land mines and roadside explosive devices. Of course, it also does an excellent job of stopping bullets but all that comes at a significant cost in stability and maneuverability. Just because surplus MRAPs are almost free, doesn't mean they're the best tool for police work.

          Military training literature that says "The MRAP vehicle may become unstable and tip over when negotiating vertical obstacles and deep ruts or potholes in the path of movement," doesn't inspire confidence. I've had to deal with stuff like that in a Crown Vic but I never worried about keeping the shiny side up.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Seventy2002 View Post
            Do you mean asset as in "makes it easier to do the job" or asset as in "another piece of gear on the books"? The MRAP is optimized for surviving land mines and roadside explosive devices. Of course, it also does an excellent job of stopping bullets but all that comes at a significant cost in stability and maneuverability. Just because surplus MRAPs are almost free, doesn't mean they're the best tool for police work.

            Military training literature that says "The MRAP vehicle may become unstable and tip over when negotiating vertical obstacles and deep ruts or potholes in the path of movement," doesn't inspire confidence. I've had to deal with stuff like that in a Crown Vic but I never worried about keeping the shiny side up.
            I mean asset as in another piece of gear on the books. If the cost is minimal and it fills a need, I do not see a downside. Getting rid of something based on 'scary' looks is stupidity squared. It is stupid on its face, and it is stupid to allow that logic to dictate a decision.

            I highly doubt anybody is going to encounter a vertical obstacle or deep rut/pothole enough to tip an MRAP in an urban American city. You would have to be intentionally trying to tip it. On top of that, they have proven to be valuable in riot situations, as evidenced in Missouri when officers on the ground began taking small arms fire among the rocks, bottles, and molotov cocktails. Factoring in smaller agencies that cannot afford hundreds of thousands for a lenco, this fills a niche and provides an asset that they would otherwise not have.

            Another thought that is not being thought of is disaster relief efforts. These things are big and heavy. They can get through areas where water is over streets that would flood out a crown vic or tahoe. They make a stable base to tie off of for other recovery efforts. Have you ever seen agencies use fire trucks for the shear weight of them? I have. This is a good substitute, and frees that fire truck up to go fight fires or respond to medical calls. The benefits outweigh the cons, especially when the chief negative that is brought up is 'it is scary looking'.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by kermit315 View Post
              Another thought that is not being thought of is disaster relief efforts. These things are big and heavy. They can get through areas where water is over streets that would flood out a crown vic or tahoe. They make a stable base to tie off of for other recovery efforts. Have you ever seen agencies use fire trucks for the shear weight of them? I have. This is a good substitute, and frees that fire truck up to go fight fires or respond to medical calls. The benefits outweigh the cons, especially when the chief negative that is brought up is 'it is scary looking'.
              The neighboring county that received one this spring has already used it to help evacuate areas that flash flooded during a large rainstorm.

              In talking with the Sheriff (an old friend of mine) he tells me that he plans on using it when Interstate 80 is closed by blizzard conditions in the winter. They currently use the State Patrol and National Guard troop carriers for rescues but he thinks the MRAP will be another option.

              This is IN ADDITION to the bullet resistant qualities they plan to use in tactical situations. There were two incidents within the last couple years that the protection of the MRAP would have been used had it been available during serious incidents.

              Law Enforcement has been using surplus military gear for as long as I have been in the profession. In the 1970's and 1980's we used JEEPS and HELICOPTERS that were surplus from the Korean War. We didn't use them for the reasons the military used them for--------but we ADAPTED THEM to meet OUR mission

              Since then the military has provided surplus weapons to many agencies who could not afford to buy them. Or in many cases those agencies used the $$$$ to add staffing while still outfitting the force with weapons that could "keep up" with those that were being used by the criminals.

              Once again we didn't use those military grade weapons "as designed" (IE to kill an advancing army) instead they were ADAPTED to a Law Enforcement mission (to help protect the citizenry and the officers).

              The agencies (in my area) that have MRAP's will use them in various ways in the furtherance of their missions. I really doubt they will need the full capabilities of the MINE RESISTANCE part of the vehicle, but you know what-----the way things are going you never know.

              The COST of maintaining the vehicle will be insignificant if even one officer or civilian is saved by using this piece of equipment in some scenario we haven't thought of yet.
              Iowa #1603
              Senior Veteran
              Last edited by Iowa #1603; 08-31-2014, 08:34 AM.
              My new word for the day is FOCUS, when someone irritates you tell them to FOCUS

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Iowa #1603 View Post
                The neighboring county that received one this spring has already used it to help evacuate areas that flash flooded during a large rainstorm.

                In talking with the Sheriff (an old friend of mine) he tells me that he plans on using it when Interstate 80 is closed by blizzard conditions in the winter. They currently use the State Patrol and National Guard troop carriers for rescues but he thinks the MRAP will be another option.

                This is IN ADDITION to the bullet resistant qualities they plan to use in tactical situations. There were two incidents within the last couple years that the protection of the MRAP would have been used had it been available during serious incidents.

                Law Enforcement has been using surplus military gear for as long as I have been in the profession. In the 1970's and 1980's we used JEEPS and HELICOPTERS that were surplus from the Korean War. We didn't use them for the reasons the military used them for--------but we ADAPTED THEM to meet OUR mission

                Since then the military has provided surplus weapons to many agencies who could not afford to buy them. Or in many cases those agencies used the $$$$ to add staffing while still outfitting the force with weapons that could "keep up" with those that were being used by the criminals.

                Once again we didn't use those military grade weapons "as designed" (IE to kill an advancing army) instead they were ADAPTED to a Law Enforcement mission (to help protect the citizenry and the officers).

                The agencies (in my area) that have MRAP's will use them in various ways in the furtherance of their missions. I really doubt they will need the full capabilities of the MINE RESISTANCE part of the vehicle, but you know what-----the way things are going you never know.

                The COST of maintaining the vehicle will be insignificant if even one officer or civilian is saved by using this piece of equipment in some scenario we haven't thought of yet.
                Agreed.

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                • #23
                  A lot of the BS going on about the surplus military vehicles that the PD's have been getting has to do with the "looks" of the vehicles. Since most of the PD's with them probably got them for some minimal cost (like $1 or something close), maybe spend a grand or 2 on it and have it painted black and white with the same graphics that the squads have. I think it's leaving the olive drag green color that makes people think that we are coming to break into their homes and snatch their weapons mentality. I think the public perception may be calmed down if the PD's gave them a paint scheme that looked like the town's squad cars. Just my 2 cents.

                  I'm all for using these vehicles. Most will stop small arms fire much better than the door of a CV or Dodge Charger..Better protection for those times when Shiate may hit the fan.

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                  • #24
                    Repainting has happened to ALL of the MRAPS that came to Iowa..................

                    Most area's have painted them plain black.............(and this has been a problem with those who think BLACK is bad)

                    One county painted theirs WHITE (sheriff's cars in Iowa are white) and put a sheriff's star on the side (similar to a squad configuration) but STILL caught gruff due to "militarization"
                    My new word for the day is FOCUS, when someone irritates you tell them to FOCUS

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                    • #25
                      This all goes back to the Maybury fallacy: If an officer is not dressed in a Marine Dress Blue style coat, bobby hat, and armed only with a whistle, he's too militarized and has no place in America.

                      With the backlash that's going on over all this crap, I'd be worried that some departments will go to a British model and disarm most of the officers and just keep a few authorized firearm officers.
                      "If the police have to come get you, they're bringing an @$$ kicking with them!"
                      -Chris Rock

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by GangGreen712 View Post

                        With the backlash that's going on over all this crap, I'd be worried that some departments will go to a British model and disarm most of the officers and just keep a few authorized firearm officers.
                        THAT will never happen in the United States----------------

                        NO ONE would work for an agency like that.--------------well, no one worth a bucket of warm spit would work for an agency like that.
                        My new word for the day is FOCUS, when someone irritates you tell them to FOCUS

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by GangGreen712 View Post
                          This all goes back to the Maybury fallacy: If an officer is not dressed in a Marine Dress Blue style coat, bobby hat, and armed only with a whistle, he's too militarized and has no place in America.

                          With the backlash that's going on over all this crap, I'd be worried that some departments will go to a British model and disarm most of the officers and just keep a few authorized firearm officers.
                          Not while our country has a 2A, IMO. No person in their right mind is going to purposely take on this job unarmed against an armed populace.

                          ETA: This is in no way derogatory towards the 2A.....I am an ardent supporter. Lest I be called traitorous by someone later.

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                          • #28
                            I always find it funny when people call for a return to the traditional uniforms etc because they don't like the current tactical stuff. They don't seem to be aware that use of force back in the days those uniforms were worn was subject to much less scrutiny than today.

                            I'm sure deep down people don't really want to be getting an unofficial kicking from a smartly dressed policeman with no nametag, MDT, camera or any means of accountability.

                            I don't agree with the mindset that policing is more violent or has higher uses of force than in previous decades.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Mulgrave600 View Post
                              I'm sure deep down people don't really want to be getting an unofficial kicking from a smartly dressed policeman with no nametag, MDT, camera or any means of accountability.
                              For some reason I found this hilarious, quote of the week material for sure. (Totally agree by the way).

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by kermit315 View Post
                                If the cost is minimal and it fills a need, I do not see a downside.
                                Do you you really think cops need protection from land mines?

                                I highly doubt anybody is going to encounter a vertical obstacle or deep rut/pothole enough to tip an MRAP in an urban American city.
                                Well, I hear stories about potholes in NYC.

                                Seriously, my small, rural, town got an MRAP. We still have a couple unpaved streets and plenty others with drainage ditches and soft shoulders. We have utility roads with deep ruts and potholes. We have a couple bridges I'm not sure could handle the weight.

                                These things are big and heavy. They can get through areas where water is over streets that would flood out a crown vic or tahoe.
                                We've already got vehicles (not fire engines) that can handle flood water. Big and heavy isn't necessarily an asset. When it floods around here, the city and county commonly place weight limits on roads.

                                I didn't think police MRAPs were a good idea before the current brouhaha, for reasons stated and not including scary looks. No one asked my opinion, except you guys and I luv ya for that.

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