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  • Should police wait after knocking?

    Should police wait after knocking?
    CS Monitor ^

    Should police wait after knocking?

    High court hears search-and-seizure case Wednesday that will impact the war on terrorism.

    By Warren Richey | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

    WASHINGTON
    "I neither approve or blame. I merely relate."- Voltaire

  • #2
    This idea is so simple there has to be something wrong with it.

    Why not just knock at the door and wait for the person inside to either open the door or ask who it is? This would eliminate the problem of someone being caught in the shower or knocking down the wrong door. Once they identified themselves the occupant could have a certain number of seconds to open the door. If he didn't they could then break in.

    This leaves only the question of what to do if no one is home.

    Like I said, it's so obvious there must be lots of things wrong with it.
    I love keeping secrets. It drives people crazy.

    Comment


    • #3
      Knock, Knock

      How many of you look out the window after a knock to see who it is? I do and it is my experience that the majority of people do.

      So what really is a "reasonable" amount of time? And who is the "reasonable" amount of time for? Could it be for the crack dealer or murder suspect inside so that they might have just enough time to get their gun, make sure it is loaded and take aim at the door for the first unlucky officer through it?

      Yes, sometimes unfortunate things occur such as the fright of another. Professor Maclin says, "I'm not sure you can put a dollar sign on the fright and terror [of having a SWAT team burst through your front door]". How about the cost of the life of the first guy through the door who just happens to get shot in the face?

      My opinion is knocking and announce three times. This prepares anyone inside with the knowledge that a bunch of "good guys with guns" are coming in. This still leaves some element of surprise which is what we rely on. On the narcotics end, surprise is a must to prevent quick disposal of evidence.

      If we wait for 15 or 20 seconds and the suspect destroys or disposes of evidence, we come up with nothing. This could potentially open the door for other 4th Amendment issues. It coming down to "dammed if you do, dammed if you don't".

      "Laws have lawyers, justice has no one"!
      The Dope Man giveth, the Cops taketh away!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Pigeon


        Why not just knock at the door and wait for the person inside to either open the door or ask who it is?
        i'd like to invite you to be an observer for a week our so with us on the SWAT unit. These crack dealers are not going to come to the door until they either flush ALL their dope, or get their guns and are ready for you to try to come get them. I will not go into our procedure for a K&A search warrant, as this is not a secure website. However I will say there will be no waiting for someone to come to the door unless they are coming immediately. SWAT is successful partialy due to the psychological advantage of several people wearing black with hoods on moving in in a hurry and putting people on the ground with no delay. If you start to wait for them to get ready, and then open the door on their terms, people are going to start getting hurt, and I'll be damned if me or any of my team members are going to get hurt.
        Deputy Brandy L. Winfield
        RIP - October 14, 2004

        www.ar15armory.com

        Comment


        • #5
          To go into further detail from what Bikepatrol85 has already started. In my mind,if ANY weapons are inside the structure,it justifies a no knock warrant. Period. I say that the time limit of 20 seconds is an eternity when you are on the other side of the door. I don't know why in that situation,given the presence of weapons,why a no knock wasn't obtained. Anyone who wants to second guess an entry team I offer you this:If you get a warrant that doesn't have a no knock clause in it,and you KNOW the suspect is armed,then you be the first man on the stack. You be the one to yell POLICE,SEARCH WARRANT! See how you feel and how long you would wait to breach the door. SWAT and other teams who serve these warrants have a tough job and if someone says that we have to wait X amount of time to breach,then a lot of good men are going to be lost. Count on it.
          If you stare into the abyss long enough,sometimes it stares back.

          Comment


          • #6
            That's right pigeon let's knock politely on the bad guys door and yell "police" then wait nice and patient like. Meanwhile inside the bad guy can just destroy the drugs or go get his AK and ambush us. HELL, just tell us to come back later because we're bothering him. Liberal. It's heads up the you know where people like you that make our job that much more difficult. SWAT teams don't arbitrarely pick houses and bust down doors because we like to blow things up. We do like to blow things up, but a lot of intel and planning go into raids to avoid problems. Simple...Give me a break...
            surly?? screw you....

            Comment


            • #7
              Take a judge or lawyer on a couple of drug raids and maybe they'll see things a little better than they do from the courtroom or corporate office.

              Ok, maybe (if I really, really stretch it) I can see saying you can't be swinging the door ram as you're saying "police, search warrant, demand entry." Maybe saying it twice before the dynamic entry, but I think that depends on the circumstances. In my area, a Carrollton (NW of Dallas) Police officer and a Tarrant County (Fort Worth area) deputy recently got shot executing warrants. Placing a specific time limit creates too much risk in my opinion. And I'm not a narc or a SWAT team member.

              This part killed me: "Had the officers ... paused just a bit longer, it might have afforded respondent the chance to have met the intruders with the small dignity of a towel," says Banks's lawyer, Randall Roske of Las Vegas, in his brief to the court.

              Gimme a break, this guy is slinging dope! What about the small dignity of the good residents who deserve to live in a place where they don't have to be awakened by the sounds of a SWAT team breaking in a door because of his dope-peddling?
              Last edited by Padres19; 10-15-2003, 01:54 PM.
              "A man's got to know his limitations" --Inspector Harry Callahan in Magnum Force

              Comment


              • #8
                Like I said, it was so simple there had to be something wrong with the idea.

                I'm one of those people who doesn't have either drugs or guns in my home so I don't think the same way people like that think. I was imagining how I would react if someone knocked my door down because I couldn't get there to open it if I was in bed half asleep or lying on the living room floor doing my exercises. There have been rare instances of the wrong house being targeted. That's not intended as a criticism, but it is a fact of life. Mistakes do happen.
                I love keeping secrets. It drives people crazy.

                Comment


                • #9
                  How to React

                  As your door is hit by the point man and shatters into a million pieces, and you catch a glimps of a man with a Gun coming through your door, and you hear a hundred shouts of POLICE SEARCH WARRANT my advise is lay down and be very still and DO AS WE TELL YOU TOO, any one who is innocent will be given full cooperation and the city or county responsible will double over backwards to right the wrong,, but for those people who are not innocent and corrupt our society with what amounts to no more that domestic terrorism, every time one of those political weenies who needs viagra tries to give these dirt bags more rights it take away another tool of Law enforcement to do our Job and it makes our job just that much harder AND THEN the public gets ****ed because they dont understand that LE as a whole was just hog tied and raped. There are plenty of features built in to protecting the good from the bad but as with ANYTHING accidents due to lack of communication, faulty information,will occure no matter if we knock hard or soft, the only change will be less Criminals in Jail and more citizens being screwed by the criminal, Sorry if I flew off the Handel

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It was not my intention to offend/insult anyone with what to me was an innocent comment. I have never been a victim, and I have never been arrested. I read and hear of lots of strange things going on around me but I'm not sure I'm getting all the facts. I just want a better understanding from the law enforcement side. That's why I'm here. I hear enough propaganda from defense attorneys and the ACLU.
                    Last edited by Pigeon; 10-15-2003, 09:33 PM.
                    I love keeping secrets. It drives people crazy.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      You blokes MUST be joking....
                      No, seriously..is this a set up or what? Your justice system can't seriously be saying that the drugs, firearms, etc can no longer be used in evidence because the police DIDN'T WAIT after knocking?
                      (and what would constitute a reasonable period after knocking? c'mon?)

                      The key phrase here is "Search Warrant".. I don't know how they are worded over there, but where I come from search warants authorises us entry into the specified premises for the purpose of searching for the listed artiles etc..
                      Nowhere does it say anything about knocking on the bloody door..
                      I think your judiciary needs to wake up and smell the gunsmoke..
                      Pain....nature's way of letting us know we're still alive!!!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I posted one reply and it disappeared. If it comes up twice, forgive me.

                        This is obviously the work of the 9th Circuit Circus. They are the idiots that found the saying of the Pledge of Allegance to be unconstitutional, remember. I believe about 75% if their rulings that are appealed are overturned by the Supremes.

                        I worked clandestine crank labs for four years. No crack head can hold a candle to a cranker who's been up for 40+ hours. If I had to wait 15 to 20 seconds to take the door, I'd have lost an officer a month, at least. I'm confident that will be overturned.
                        Jim
                        "Life's tough, it's tougher if you're stupid." John Wayne

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by NSWCop
                          You blokes MUST be joking....
                          No, seriously..is this a set up or what? Your justice system can't seriously be saying that the drugs, firearms, etc can no longer be used in evidence because the police DIDN'T WAIT after knocking?
                          Yes, it's like that here. There's this little thing called the "Exclusionary Rule." If the court determines that evidence has been obtained illegaly, it is supressed.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            No offense taken

                            There is no offense taken, Pigeon we need more people who actualy think for themselves and want both sides of the story, we "Law Enforcement" types take our job and or commitment to you the tax payer very serious but it seems while the war wages overseas, people forget we have a two headed snake to fight here, I will never suggest or support viloation of any ones civil rights, and if you only knew how hard it is to get a Search Warrant, it takes Days in some cases and even months in drug cases to get enough "probable cause" to show a judge that we need to act in minuets not hours, therefore quick decive actions have to be planned and then, we poor slugs get to suit up our officers and send them into one of the most dangerouse place on earth, and in seconds its over, and hopefully all our work planning and coopertaion between agencies was good enough to get the Bad Guy off the street and get my Officers home witout a scratch to their wifes and families, just to turn around and do it again the next day.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Ya know it gets a little upsetting after a while to have a job where you need to make a split second life or death decision that will be looked at by supervisors, media, lawyers, Judges, legislators, that have all the time in the world to decide if you did the right thing. As in a earlier thread I said, that must be why we make the big bucks. I believe we should have rules and consiquences if we violate those rules but if the supremes (the greatest legal minds in the land) can't make a unanamous decision about anything, how are we supposed to know what the latest and greatest micro-management rule of the month is? I you give me a basic set of rules to follow and the situation dictates that I need to deviate from the rule and I can articulate why I had to deviate from the rule then that should be good enough. This is what I do for a living, I go to bad people's houses and take them to jail for a violation of the law because no one else can or will. Sometimes mistakes are made and I am responsible for those mistakes. Fine with me those are the rules and I can live with that. If I am serving a knock and announce warrant and I hear somthing inside the house that I think could harm me or my team then the stuation has changed and we will take the appropriate action. Do not give us a rule set in stone like waiting X amount of time between a knock and entry. I will not put my team in that situation and no arrest will be made. If the supremes have a problem with that and set a 30 second time limit let me go in front of them with my 1911 disassembled in a box and I will have it together and loaded in that amount of time.
                              Trust me I'm with the government.

                              Comment

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