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  • MargeGunderson
    replied
    Originally posted by Max K View Post
    Pressure point? Is that the same as "Bilateral Vascular Restraint"? Here you can see that the officer's thumbs are below the ears of the suspect (or even farther towards the back of the neck), not in the front, not in a choking position, far away from the throat area.



    Here is a description of the "Bilateral Vascular Restraint":

    The BVR is effective not just because of the compression of the carotid arteries. It is primarily a combination of three occurrences, of which the least impact is derived from the compression of the carotid arteries. The proper application of a BVR results in fainting due to the compression of the carotid arteries, the compression of the jugular veins, and the stimulation of the vagus nerve. The vagus nerve controls involuntary body functions such as breathing and your heart beating. The panel determined that it takes about 11 ponds of pressure to block the carotid arteries and only five pounds of pressure to block the jugular veins. If the jugular veins are even partially blocked, blood flow from the head is slowed and blood becomes congested in the head. When pressure is applied to a resistor’s mid-neck area (the area of the jugular veins), the carotid sinuses determines there is an increase in blood pressure and signals the vagus nerve to respond to the threat by drastically slowing heart rate and lowering blood pressure, which results in fainting.

    http://www.policeone.com/close-quart...k-the-carotid/
    In this one, the suspect looks like he's laughing in the officer's face. Not an excuse, just an observation. He doesn't appear to be suffering or even intimidated.

    Leave a comment:


  • MargeGunderson
    replied
    Originally posted by Max K View Post
    How about this well-known image:



    There is no way to tell, from the image alone, whether this is some kind of child abuse. The revolver looks strange to me (cylinder no thicker than the barrel). But many people, who have seen the image, have already convicted that woman in their mind.

    Those same people see the photos with the choke-hold and convict the officer in their mind, rather than admit to themselves: "we don't know what happened, the photos by themselves are insufficient evidence (of any wrongdoing or misconduct)".
    Of course you can't literally convict her of child endangerment based on that, but no toddler should be casual and comfortable with any gun pointed two inches from her eyes. That looks like it could be chocolate, but how could she be expected to be accountable for knowing the difference if her 4-year-old brother finds Mom's cute little real number?

    That has nothing to do with the officer's situation, of course, just that there is a lot more to that mother's competence than whether or not that gun is real.

    And once again it's sanitizer who absolutely nails it with the best graphic!

    Leave a comment:


  • tj05
    replied
    Originally posted by TJx2 View Post
    I was there..not a choke..suspect was uncooperative while swapping cuffs for the wagon. Officer used pressure point to gain compliance and suspect went "weak knee." Election year, enough said. Shame to lose 22 years of service....
    You look closely at the photo he wasn't strangling the guy he was using a pressure point on his neck, but you know how much police work has been watered down. Eventually we'll just start giving criminals hugs instead of taking them to jail.

    Leave a comment:


  • AvalancheZ71
    replied
    SHERIFF, Vote For 1
    REP Sam Hammett 38 7.72% 869 7.23% 815 7.41% 1,722 7.32%
    REP Jimmy "J. J." Jones 326 66.26% 7,275 60.53% 5,952 54.11% 13,553 57.65%
    REP Bobby Waggoner 128 26.02% 3,875 32.24% 4,233 38.48% 8,236 35.03%
    Cast Votes: 492 98.01% 12,019 96.58% 11,000 96.60% 23,511 96.62%

    Looks like "J.J." won the primary with 57.65% of the vote.

    Leave a comment:


  • Max K
    replied
    Originally posted by TJx2 View Post
    I was there..not a choke..suspect was uncooperative while swapping cuffs for the wagon. Officer used pressure point to gain compliance and suspect went "weak knee." Election year, enough said. Shame to lose 22 years of service....
    Pressure point? Is that the same as "Bilateral Vascular Restraint"? Here you can see that the officer's thumbs are below the ears of the suspect (or even farther towards the back of the neck), not in the front, not in a choking position, far away from the throat area.



    Here is a description of the "Bilateral Vascular Restraint":

    The BVR is effective not just because of the compression of the carotid arteries. It is primarily a combination of three occurrences, of which the least impact is derived from the compression of the carotid arteries. The proper application of a BVR results in fainting due to the compression of the carotid arteries, the compression of the jugular veins, and the stimulation of the vagus nerve. The vagus nerve controls involuntary body functions such as breathing and your heart beating. The panel determined that it takes about 11 ponds of pressure to block the carotid arteries and only five pounds of pressure to block the jugular veins. If the jugular veins are even partially blocked, blood flow from the head is slowed and blood becomes congested in the head. When pressure is applied to a resistor’s mid-neck area (the area of the jugular veins), the carotid sinuses determines there is an increase in blood pressure and signals the vagus nerve to respond to the threat by drastically slowing heart rate and lowering blood pressure, which results in fainting.

    http://www.policeone.com/close-quart...k-the-carotid/

    Leave a comment:


  • Erasthenes
    replied
    Well, the guy never goes visably limp. Without more stills of what happened after, you can't really tell.

    Leave a comment:


  • NORCOCOP
    replied
    The slowed down frames above do indeed look damning. It did not appear the other Officers were struggling with the subjects arms or wrists during the incident. I can't see the subject tensing or pulling away either.It is hard to tell what the actual time lapse is and I don't know if there are other photos taken that aren't shown that could clarify things. They could have removed stills that painted a false picture. I would depent on what the other Officers involved said was going on for me to pass judgement.

    Leave a comment:


  • XGEP
    replied
    I've looked at the stills a bunch, I still can't figure this out. What pressure point was being applied? Mandibular angle/Hypoglossal/Clavical Notch? I will say whatever he was doing sure didn't seem to have any effect until the guy 'goes weak'. At least from what you can see, it sure looks like he's choking the **** out of the guy, but again his reaction doesn't seem to match that.

    I'll also agree I'm not seeing the resistance to handcuffing that was alleged.

    Not saying anything about this specific instance, but if you're swapping cuffs don't take the other pair off all the way. Put the new pair on loose above or below the old pair, take the old pair off, re-position the new ones, tighten, and double-lock.
    Last edited by XGEP; 04-29-2014, 04:05 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Max K
    replied
    I took the liberty of re-aligning the animation frames provided earlier by Carbonfiberfoot, so that now the camera seems to be steadier than before. I also slowed it down, so that each of the 43 frames is 0.75 seconds long:

    Leave a comment:


  • XD_Shooter
    replied
    Originally posted by Langford PR View Post
    Lastly, I'm a hyper-cynical SOB about administration but also know, personally, that if you cannot do the job like a proffessional anymore....get the f**k out. The 'good' cops out there don't need the taint of a burnout hassling thier job every night.
    ^^^^^ This.....

    Leave a comment:


  • XD_Shooter
    replied
    http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/tncode/

    38-3-121. Use of choke holds.

    No law enforcement officer shall use a choke hold or other similar respiratory restraining maneuver, with or without the use of a police baton, on any suspect, defendant or other person unless other methods of restraint are ineffective. Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit the use of the lateral vascular maneuver.


    Unfortuantly the Deputy is going to have a difficult time proving that his force was justified by the fact there are 2 other Officer's on scene and they all have quite a but of size on the suspect. Looks like a ****ty situation.

    From what I hear the Sheriff's office was responding to a mutual aid call to assisted University Police with a "block" party that got out of hand. Comments from the UTK Students attending really make me mad, they blame the police for showing up. Once the Cruisers arrived on the street it became an aggressive mob and they began attacking the cruisers and Officer's on scene. UTK Student say that if the Officer's would have just left then none of this would have happened.

    Students threw rocks, bottles, and other objects at the cruisers and the Officer's when they arrived on scene.

    Leave a comment:


  • Langford PR
    replied
    There is a lot of assuming going on both ways....I cannot imagine an AI being done on this w/o the other officers being interviewed. I also saw zero physical resistance by the SBJ and verbal non-compliance is no excuse for a mandibular or any other physical force, period. I'm pretty sure I don't even need to review my Koga, PPCT, Krav, or other defense-tactics instructor manuals I have to confirm that.

    spock.png .......Verbal abuse to a cop is like rain to a duck.

    Damn right, pictures/video don't show everything....but this looks pretty damning to me. I believe this was handled right barring some new evidence.

    Lastly, I'm a hyper-cynical SOB about administration but also know, personally, that if you cannot do the job like a proffessional anymore....get the f**k out. The 'good' cops out there don't need the taint of a burnout hassling thier job every night.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sackett
    replied
    Alot of LE brass could not give a flying sh$& about what it was like when they worked the road. We live in a "ME" society, and if there is a slight possibility that your actions will cause them any grief you will be canned.

    Leave a comment:


  • Henderson
    replied
    Originally posted by jchughes05 View Post
    Why is it nowadays that a lot of Sheriffs don't seem to remember anything about their time on the road???? Were they NOT cops???
    Not always. One in the county where I live has zero law enforcement experience. He does, however, seem to have a great relationship with his employees and I've never seen/heard of him throwing any of them under the bus.

    Leave a comment:


  • jchughes05
    replied
    Why is it nowadays that a lot of Sheriffs don't seem to remember anything about their time on the road???? Were they NOT cops???

    Leave a comment:

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