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13 Officers Placed on Leave after Pursuit; Union Slams Police Chief: "It's Bull****"

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  • 13 Officers Placed on Leave after Pursuit; Union Slams Police Chief: "It's Bull****"

    Pretty interesting story developing here in Ohio:


    The chase began about 10:30 p.m. Thursday outside the Justice Center in downtown Cleveland. In a news conference Saturday, Union President Jeff Follmer said two Cleveland officers heard a gunshot and believed it came from a 1979 Chevrolet Malibu belonging to Timothy Russell.

    Russell, with Williams in his car, sped away.

    The Bureau of Criminal Identification and Investigation has assigned two agents to assist the East Cleveland Police Department in unraveling what happened in the 26 minutes between when Cleveland officers heard a gunshot outside the Justice Center and Russell, 43, and Williams, 30, died in a hail of bullets.

    Pathologists at the Cuyahoga County Medical Examiner’s Office removed 20 rounds from Russell’s body and 16 from Williams’ body. They both had additional wounds from bullets that entered and exited their bodies — Russell had 30 wounds, Williams had 20, an investigator said.

    Russell had driven from downtown on Interstate 90 east through Bratenahl at speeds of up to 100 mph and rammed a police car before he exited the freeway and headed into East Cleveland, Gardner said.

    During the chase on the highway, an officer reported also seeing something in the passenger’s hands, Gardner said.

    Russell ended up on a dead-end access road to an East Cleveland middle school.

    There, a dozen officers from Bratenahl PD, the Ohio State Highway Patrol and the Cuyahoga County Sheriff’s Office converged with the 13 Cleveland officers. 137 rounds were fired.

    They surrounded the Malibu, and some officers were out of their cars when Russell rammed another police car, Gardner said.

    In the news conference, Follmer described it more forcefully. Russell “violently rammed a police car and almost struck an officer,” he said.

    Police are trained to use deadly force to stop a suspect from using a vehicle as a weapon. They opened fire.

    The Cuyahoga County Medical Examiner’s Office is running gunshot-residue tests on Russell’s and Williams’ hands to determine if either fired a gun. The results should be in before week’s end.

    No gun was found in Russell’s car or along the chase route. No bullet or casing was found outside the Justice Center.

    The apparent uncertainty over whether police knew who they were chasing is one among a multitude of questions hanging over the incident.

    There appear to be many others, including from why the officers fired at all — there was no gun was found in the car — to why they fired so many shots, to whether one of the suspects had first fired a gun,

    Investigators will begin today interviewing the 13 Cleveland police officers who fired 137 bullets Thursday at a car, killing a Cleveland man and woman in East Cleveland after a high-speed chase.

    ------------

    Today, more three days after the pursuit, investigators are still searching the chase route looking for any firearms that may have been tossed during the pursuit.

    The police chief and the media have really slammed these officers:

    “It’s really with a heavy heart. I can’t tell you how much this hurts the Cleveland Division of Police,” McGrath said at a news conference. “We work so hard. We worked so hard to make things good. Something like this, I’m not saying it makes us look bad because the investigation isn’t completed yet, but it’s a real challenge for us.”

    At some point during the investigation, McGrath said the city will reach out to the U.S. attorney's office and also the FBI "to ask for the assistance, recommendations from the Civil Right division."

    "Why are we doing it? Because it's the right thing to do," he said. "And we will provide support not just for our police officers but for the community."
    And the Union President’s response:

    "[In] my eyes, everybody did great. It was a good job on the pursuit, no innocent people got hurt but like I said, I just go back to saying again they could've stopped at any point …

    "I don't understand why the "bad guys" aren't still bad, and now it's the police officers. It's bull****," a heated Union President, Detective Jeff Follmer, told reporters at a Saturday press conference.

    Follmer kept reiterating how unhappy he is with the remarks Cleveland's Police Chief, Michael McGrath, made towards this investigation in a joint East Cleveland and Cleveland Police press conference held Friday night.

    Follmer, joined by a full room of uniformed and non-uniformed police officers, spoke-out Saturday saying they fully support the 13 Cleveland Police Officers and how they handled what Follmer described to be a "rapidly evolving situation."

    “The officers involved are experienced and professional police officers,” he said. “For anyone who was not there to judge them without knowing all the facts, or to blame anyone else but the two occupants of that car for their own death, is ignorant and self-serving.”

    I gotta say, I really like this Union. The officers have somebody who is passionately looking out for them.
    Last edited by Jacob2899; 12-03-2012, 01:41 PM.
    "In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." - Martin Luther King, Jr

  • #2
    I am with the Chief, they should have been suspended. There hit ration was way too low. that's 86 possible hits and conservatively 130 rounds fired. That's 66%. I don't know about your school but, growing up a 66% was failing......
    Stupid has no color or race, everyone can participate.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by IAM Rand View Post
      I am with the Chief, they should have been suspended. There hit ration was way too low. that's 86 possible hits and conservatively 130 rounds fired. That's 66%. I don't know about your school but, growing up a 66% was failing......
      That's a pretty average statistic from everything I've read about it. Gotta remember, they were probably firing while on the move at a moving target.

      I will say that it's not too often you hear about that many officers in one shooting. I think it's the highest number I've seen.

      Not trying to say anything negative about anyone involved, but it seems there might have been a little too many officers. Could have led to much confusion and with that many cops and shots... they're lucky no one else got hurt.

      Shame on the chief for not having his officer's backs until proven otherwise.

      Comment


      • #4
        137 rounds isn't a whole lot considering how many officers were present. Less than 10 rounds per officer on average.

        Even in sim-round training, which only provokes minor stress compared to an actual shooting, I've caught myself squeezing off 12 rounds at one target in just a few seconds without even thinking about it.
        Last edited by headonstraight; 12-03-2012, 05:56 PM.

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        • #5
          Che(tongue)ek
          Stupid has no color or race, everyone can participate.

          Comment


          • #6
            So they made Swiss cheese out of two scumwads. Where is the problem?
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            • #7
              Maybe it applies here, maybe it doesn't. Police chiefs are often appointed by, or owe their office to Mayors. Mayors often have agenda's,and more often than not, know zilch about law enforcement.

              Oh and let's not forget something our wonderful Chief apparently has lost sight of. Automobiles can be, and often are ,deadly weapons. Past all that I totally agree with my colleague's viewpoint as expressed in Post#6.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hmmm, the way I see it, once a suspect decides to run down an officer with a car, the question of whether he fired a gun or even had a gun to begin with becomes moot.
                It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by IAM Rand View Post
                  I am with the Chief, they should have been suspended. There hit ration was way too low. that's 86 possible hits and conservatively 130 rounds fired. That's 66%. I don't know about your school but, growing up a 66% was failing......
                  I wish our hit rate was even close to being that high......that is also true for most agencies in the country....esp. when you get to practice all of 2-3 times a year, if that
                  The posts on this forum by this poster are of his personal opinion, and his personal opinion alone

                  "Politicians are like diapers. They need to be changed often and for the same reason"

                  "We fight not for glory; nor for wealth; nor honor, but only and alone we fight for freedom, which no good man surrenders but with his life"

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                  • #10
                    I will reserve comment since I was not there and don't know all of the particulars. And, yes, there are issues which were intentionally ignored by the media and not published. There always are.

                    Put simply, almost every agency in the nation has policies and procedures that dictate conduct. If an agency head is of the opinion that there was a violation of one or more of those dictates, actions are generally taken - liked or unliked. Popular or unpopular.....actions vary from verbal reprimand to termination. It is the Chief's call, not ours!
                    Be courteous to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence!

                    [George Washington (1732 - 1799)]

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                    • #11
                      Even if they didn't have a gun or ever fire anything, why did they evade in the first place? Why did they attempt to ram the squad car and almost hit an Officer? They tried using lethal means against the Officer's using their car and it cost their life. What's the problem here . . .?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by IAM Rand View Post
                        I am with the Chief, they should have been suspended. There hit ration was way too low. that's 86 possible hits and conservatively 130 rounds fired. That's 66%. I don't know about your school but, growing up a 66% was failing......
                        65% was passing in the nyc public school system. Still is!
                        Captain Square Badge, reporting for duty!.

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                        • #13
                          Pathologists at the Cuyahoga County Medical Examiner’s Office removed 20 rounds from Russell’s body and 16 from Williams’ body. They both had additional wounds from bullets that entered and exited their bodies — Russell had 30 wounds, Williams had 20, an investigator said
                          The way I read it, it is a total of 50 hits = about 40% But I will asume that they were still shooting into the vechle.
                          A little more practice may be in order,I say its still a good shoot.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by IAM Rand View Post
                            I am with the Chief, they should have been suspended. There hit ration was way too low. that's 86 possible hits and conservatively 130 rounds fired. That's 66%. I don't know about your school but, growing up a 66% was failing......
                            This guy....

                            Did you miss this part?

                            There, a dozen officers from Bratenahl PD, the Ohio State Highway Patrol and the Cuyahoga County Sheriff’s Office converged with the 13 Cleveland officers. 137 rounds were fired.
                            137 rounds were fired. It is no way AT THIS TIME of determining how many rounds each officer fired. One officer could have fired one round while another fired seventeen.

                            Also, one more thing. I don't know if you have ever been in a gunfight, I know I have. If 66% of the rounds you send down range are placed on a perceived threat? That is a VERY good day. Trust me. When under duress, that percentage is always extremely low.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by SgtCHP View Post
                              I will reserve comment since I was not there and don't know all of the particulars. And, yes, there are issues which were intentionally ignored by the media and not published. There always are.

                              Put simply, almost every agency in the nation has policies and procedures that dictate conduct. If an agency head is of the opinion that there was a violation of one or more of those dictates, actions are generally taken - liked or unliked. Popular or unpopular.....actions vary from verbal reprimand to termination. It is the Chief's call, not ours!
                              The crazy thing is, I am under the impression that the chase itself was probably unauthorized.

                              Comment

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