Killings in Houston

[Mitzi]

Yes, I believe she does deserve to die. Those kids didn't ask to be born. I think, if your kids are getting too much for you, then you have to ask for help somewhere.
There were times with my son I wanted to run away from home. Lack of sleep for me was a real problem because he was such a poor sleeper. But, then, I'd see him sitting there with his peanut butter and jelly "samwich" smeared all over his face with this little toothless grin and I would just melt.
It's so heartbreaking that these kids were killed. I can understand the stress she was under but many of us parents are under worse stress and we don't kill our kids.
I look at my sweet neighbor trying so hard to have kids and then this mother kills her kids. Life is so unreal sometimes.

[mac90]

I just heard the fathers press conference. To me it sounded rehearsed, and somewhat strange. The father said that he supports his wife and that if they ever get back together it would be awkward.
He supports the murderer of his kids!

The media were there like they were interviewing the presidents press secretary. Something is definatly screwed up here. Watch it later on tv and see what some of you police think about this, please. I am curious what some professional investigators think.

[RT]

Mac, First I saw the mother that starved her daughter. She was a fat slob! I am too mad to talk any more about that! I think she deserves to die too!
About the father, he was in shock and totally out of contact with reality. He talked of getting back with his wife, he doesn't have a clue, kind of makes me understand how he did not have a clue about his wife. I am sick of hearing about this on the news now, I have my opinion and have had enough. The whole thing brings tears to my eyes.

[SpecOpsWarrior]

RT, I think you might be right about the father, I dont see how he could be thinking clearly at this point. I dont see how any man could stand behind his wife after something like this. I hope that when the shock of this tragedy wears off maybe he will come to his senses and realize what his wife is, a cold blooded killer.

Her postpartum depression is probably going to be the crutch that she will use to try and avoid the death penalty. Even though she was depressed, I still think she knew what she was doing was wrong and she still continued.

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[Mitzi]

Shock makes you a different person. I know I keep going back to my son's brain tumor but his illness was a life changing event for me. When the doctor came out to tell us that it was worse then he thought, I honestly remember very little from that point. I was told I almost fainted and I remember my husband holding me up. I remember composing myself so I could talk to my sleeping son as they took him up to ICU. I was shocked to learn later that they had to give me a sedative to calm me down because I don't remember being that upset. People who had been waiting in the waiting room for their loved ones surgeries actually sought me out later to see if I was all right.
The father of these poor innocents can not be faulted for his behavior right now. He is going through 5 times the hell I came close to going through and it truly is hell on earth. I sincerely hope he is watched closely. I remember thinking that, if my son died, I didn't want to live. And I hope he is given life long psychological help. The hell this man is going through can not be described.

[Sparky]

I've worked child abuse as a specialty for a few years now and have seen my share of abused kids. Some dead, most not.

Recently had a guy kill his whole family including his wifes parents.

I've also seen post-partum homicides...and then there are "post-partum" homicides.

The only time I've ever seen this many kids killed by a parent, it has been something besides clinical depression.

Why so many kids? If she's been clinically depressed for two years, then why even more kids during this time?

True post-partum doesn't last two years. (from my understanding) It is very real, and non-post-partum depression is very real. But something is a little fishy here.

With such a deep depression, I would look for more warning signs. I'd also look into previous abuse/neglect referrals. Medical histories, height/weight nutritional assessments. Bone scan on autopsy and examination under UV and thorough toxicology.

Drowning may not actually be the cause of death. Check financial history. Other recent life changes. Any extra-marital affairs going on?

I could go on and on...but not my case. Thank God!

dead babies used to always be hard to take, but now that I have my own little baby.....I dunno. This is one crime scene that might make me crack.



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-Sparky

[Snoopy1]

RT

Thanks for the kind words but I don't feel I deserve all the credit. I had a lot of help from my parents, particularly in the earlier years. I can't believe I told mylittle secrets so so many strange people on the internet, but something about the topic rang a bell.

I seldom think of my ex any longer, but I remembered one funny little incident. He tried to call me collect from Mexico City. I refused the call. A few days later he called again, paying for the call this time. Although I had been getting no child support and didn't know where he was much of the time, he wanted to borrow $500. Naturally I said no. I didn't think it was funny at the time, but months later I was laughing my head off.

Thought you might think it as hysterical as I did.

[TigerLily]

This particular crime scene would rattle anyone, I'm sure. I've got a rock hard stomache for all manner of violent crime scenes--but kids are different... The starkness of their lifeless little boddies makes you feel like somebody's hand is gripped around the very core of you, so tight it tremors.
My understanding of PPD is pretty much the same as Sparky's. Usually friends and family are on a hieghtened state of alertness becuase it's so blarringly obvious that something is dramatically off-kilter.

I was ranting about this elsewhere, but the issues are just as valid here:

Would I accept this same "pitiful pearl" build-up for a shell shocked combat veteran? NO!! Even if I could summon the kind of compassion I'd need to negate her calculated homicides--it'd get her one victim, maybe two on a really terrific day--but it most definitely dries up by the time she's dragging her third, fourth and fifth innocent child into the bathroom to suffer a miserable and terrifying drowning death at her hands!
And now I suppose we're going to slam CPS and "evil" medications with the responsibily here? That's ever so convenient. So, she's off the hook - hubby's off the hook - close friends and family members are all off the hook.... Nobody saw anything, sensed trouble--we'll just sit back and trust the state to know her as intimately as her family and friends and be able to predict her homicidal intentions?!?

Who knows what the "whole" story is behind her homicidal rage. I'll tell you this though, I'm not really sure I give a good goddam.

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"You're never beaten until you admit it." --Gen. George S. Patton

[This message has been edited by TigerLily (edited 06-21-2001).]

[Mitzi]

The only answer here is that she is a monster. Mothers, and Fathers, would give their own lives for their children, not take theirs. Yes, of course, she is sick. But 5 babies are dead and she has to answer.
I remember something a psychologist said when she saw Susan Snith giving a press conference "begging" for the man who "stole" her children to bring them back. The psychologist said, "I thought it was very unusual she had makeup on and a ribbon in her hair." That was when I knew she had done it cause any real parent would like something dragged a mile.
This Houston mother looked almost defiant to me.....so emotionless. It will be interesting to me to find out if she was involved with a man who didn't want kids.
That's why Susan Smith did what she did.....It's also why the monster Diane Downs tried to kill her kids. One died, two lived but are handicapped for the rest of their lives. AND they were adopted by the prosecutor who tried the case.

[TigerLily]

Newspaper Says Woman Told of Methodically Killing Children; Being Interrupted by Last to Die, 7-Year-Old
By Pam Easton Associated Press Writer
Published: Jun 22, 2001

HOUSTON (AP) - Andrea Pia Yates told police she methodically drowned four of her children before chasing the last one, a 7-year-old son, through the house. She drowned him in the bathtub next to the body of his 6-month-old sister, the Houston Chronicle reported.
The newspaper account said Noah entered the bathroom while Yates was drowning his baby sister, Mary. "What's wrong with Mary?" a police officer quoted Noah as asking.

A police investigator, who said he had viewed Yates videotaped statement, said Yates told investigators she first killed 2-year-old Luke; second was 3-year-old Paul and third was 5-year-old John. The newspaper said the investigator spoke on the condition of anonymity.

Earlier Thursday Yates husband, Russell, tearfully told reporters he wants to help his wife through the ordeal, blaming her actions on severe depression. "I want to show her I love her and support her," Russell Yates said as he stood in his suburban Houston front yard filled with stuffed animals and flowers.

The Houston Chronicle story, released Thursday night on the newspaper's Web site, said Yates told police that after each child was drowned she carried the limp child into a back bedroom, placed the child on a bed and covered the body with a sheet. She left Noah's body in the bathtub.

A Houston police spokesman told The Associated Press late Thursday that he is unfamiliar with what Yates told homicide investigators. Russell Yates, clutching a family portrait, defended his wife. "The woman here is not the woman who killed my children," Yates said as he pointed to the picture showing his smiling wife, Andrea. "If Andrea could see this, I love you."

Andrea Yates, 36, is charged with capital murder. Police believe she systematically drowned all five of the couple's children, ages 6 months to 7 years, on Wednesday morning, then called police and her husband, a computer specialist at NASA. Yates said his wife told him simply: "You need to come home. I was afraid of her tone. Her tone was very serious," Yates said. He returned home to find his children dead and watch helplessly as his wife was arrested. "My heart just sunk."

Preliminary results from autopsies conducted Thursday indicate the children drowned, Harris County Medical Examiner Dr. Joye Carter said.

Yates said his wife had gone through postpartum depression following the birth of the couple's fourth child. "She attempted suicide and they gave her medication. It took awhile, but she just snapped out of it," he said. "She was fine from that time until a few months after she had our fifth child." He also said Andrea Yates' father died about three months ago "and that just sent her spiraling down."

"We were all hopeful she would respond to the same medications she had the first time, but she never responded that well," Yates said.

Andrea Yates was held without bail Thursday. Prosecutors have not said whether they will seek the death penalty.

Laurence Kruckman, a professor of medical anthropology at Indiana University of Pennsylvania, said there are three levels of postpartum depression. The worst is postpartum psychosis, a hormonal condition that affects mothers after one or two of every 1,000 births. "If you are in that category, there is a high likelihood of hallucinations," said Kruckman, who heads Postpartum Support International. "Mothers hear voices that say kill yourself or kill the baby, or both. She was probably hallucinating and hearing voices and couldn't take it any more," he added. "Could it be criminal? Sure, it could be."

After visiting his home for a short time Thursday, Yates headed to the medical examiner's office to identify his children. He planned to meet with his in-laws to try to find an attorney for his wife of eight years. Russell Yates' mother, Dora, helped take care of the children during the last few months. She would not talk about her daughter-in-law's depression. "Andrea is a beautiful person," she said. "It is very shocking to all of us."

Yates said that apart from his wife's depression, his family was much like others. They played T-ball, went to neighborhood birthday parties and made sure a family portrait was taken once a year. He said the family even came up with a list of ways for Andrea Yates to deal with her stress. "I think that she obviously wasn't herself and that will come out," he said. "Everyone who knows her knew she loved the kids. She is a kind, gentle person. What you see here and what you saw yesterday, it's not her."

Gag, vomit, puke!! Grrrrrr!!!!!



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"You're never beaten until you admit it." --Gen. George S. Patton

[Mitzi]

We had an instance here of what they termed "postpartum psychosis". A woman killed her husband and baby as he was trying to call for help while holding the baby. She stabbed them. It was really hard to understand how she could overpower a big man like that but I think he was terrified.
She says she's "fine now, after help" but she had to move and I think change her name. HEr husband's family is so devastated, I think her life is now in danger.

[BrickCop]

If it had been a father "diagnosed" with some type of depression you can bet your *** he'd have a one way ticket to death row.

Nobody advocates suicide but if you feel you must slaughter 5 children then I say by all means, eat the gun and spare them. She wasn't depressed, she was selfish. I read she called her husband at work after she did it. Why couldn't she call him BEFORE she did it and ask for help?! Why not flee the house in desperation? Oh yeah, she couldn't leave young children alone- they might hurt themselves. Put the kids up for adoption, leave them with a relative, drop them off at a FD or PD or maybe a hospital but for gods sake don't kill them.

Let the excuses begin, it's never anybody's fault anymore.

[Sparky]

Do we think of these incidents as being done by "monsters" as a way of distancing ourselves...as a way of convincing ourselves that this could not happen to us or someone we know?

"We" are somehow safe and shielded from these events because they were done by a "monster". We would rather demonize the perpetrator than to consider the fact that if mental illness, or psychosis can hit anyone so quickly and with such force...then we are vulnerable as well.

I, too, tend to think that somthing is hinky about this case, but is this my experience as an investigator...or maybe my experiences tend to make me suspicious, or is t my own ego defense wanting to blame monsters when there really are no monsters?

I have seen what I truly felt were evil people. Completely without remorse, they did not see people, they saw ojects. These I could consider monsters.

But...I have also seen people's circuit breaker go off. Snap! and they can do very horrible things.

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-Sparky

[ALadyToYou]

I can't explain it and I certainly don't understand it, but, I feel I must have compassion for her. Obviously, something was very wrong with her and she was unable to make rational decisions. She was not given the help she needed. When we hear stories such as this one, I know there are people all over saying, 'there, but for the Grace of God, go I'. All I feel is sadness.

[TigerLily]

Originally posted by ALadyToYou:
I can't explain it and I certainly don't understand it, but, I feel I must have compassion for her. Obviously, something was very wrong with her and she was unable to make rational decisions. She was not given the help she needed. When we hear stories such as this one, I know there are people all over saying, 'there, but for the Grace of God, go I'. All I feel is sadness.

There must be something wrong with me, 'cause I couldn't care less why she did it or how she feels about it. If she had a decent bone in her body, she'd have had the courage to kill herself.

Notice how all reason is restored once all of the kids had been destroyed?! She's suddenly straight minded enough to call her husband at work, call the police....
To hell with this broad.


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"You're never beaten until you admit it." --Gen. George S. Patton