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At least 20 hurt after shooting during 'Dark Knight' screening in Aurora, Colorado

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  • Originally posted by WillBrink View Post
    Not sure if this was covered in the thread and I don't know if it would have changed the outcome or not, for some big opening of a movie that is bound to be crowded, etc, wouldn't there usually be at least 1-2 LEO working a detail for it?

    As always, we can "what if" it to death have no real answers (shooter would probably have simply picked another target of opportunity and so forth) but that's a Q that came to mind.

    No security of any real kind, "no guns" sign posted (So I have read) and no LE doing a detail or assigned to the event = magnet for trouble.

    One person on the radio said there were 5 off duty LEO working security there for the opening. Now how big the place is, were they ARMED security, etc ??

    That was credited with saving some more seriously wounded victims because the LEO themselves transported them to the hospital within minutes. If any of that really happened I dunno.

    Bill
    Just pay your dues, and be quiet :-)

    Comment


    • Originally posted by willbird View Post
      BUT, having one more tool in your toolbox, when presented with a random threat, gives you yet another option. Many people were within arms reach of this guy while he did his evil. I highly doubt you'd be willing to armor up just like he was and let me have just ONE shot from 4' away with a 10mm Glock loaded with doubletap ammo would you, or a 4" 357 loaded with doubletep ammo ?? Naa I didn't think so.

      The theater owner decided it would be safer in there if law abiding people were disarmed, and those people found out one reason why they should not have spent their money there. Even if faced with the threat and you could not DO anything, having options is always a good thing.

      Somewhere some group of people, or maybe one single man or woman has to ponder if their decision to disarm every person who entered was a good idea, or were they directly responsible for this guy choosing THAT location, and for at least part of what ensued.

      One good thing about CPZ's if you do not shop there or go there, they will draw thinking sociopaths like poop draws flies, and I will not be there when they strike.

      Bill
      Smokey theater, armored assailant, people running everywhere, folks tripping over others, pushing at the only 2 exits. That's not a tactical environment that's in any way conducive to an accurate and safe (for the defender) defensive use of a firearm. It's just more "if I or someone else with a gun was there" thinking that doesn't help anyone, it's just doing the reverse of the people say "all guns should be banned".

      Given the situation, there simply isn't much anyone could have done, although yea, it would have been nice if someone had tried like Mark Allen Wilson did (and God rest his soul, that man was a hero).

      I carry concealed everywhere I go and I really do think CCW permit holders should boycott places that don't allow guns. But none of that has to do with this situation.
      Just like banning guns won't work because people will always buy guns, arming everyone won't work when the attacker chooses his target for maximum carnage AND (like the Tyler courthouse shooting and the Hollywood bank robbery) hardens himself against attack.\

      Bad stuff just happens sometimes, it's when we try to prevent EVERY bad thing that could happen that we make things worse.
      ~Gun control has always been about punishing the people that didn't shoot anyone.

      Comment


      • May they all rest in peace...



        From:
        http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/134775



        Jon Blunk was a 26-year-old Navy veteran who went to the movie Friday night with his girlfriend, Jansen Young (pictured). When the shots began, Blunk pushed Jansen down between the theater seats and shielded her with his body. Blunk is survived by his four-year-old daughter and two-year-old son.




        Eighteen-year-old Alexander Jonathan Boik graduated from Gateway High School just a couple of months ago. Known to everyone as A.J., Boik was planning to attend Rocky Mountain College of Art and Design in the fall. Hundreds of people attended a memorial service for Boik held at his high school baseball field Saturday evening.




        Air Force Staff Sgt. Jesse Childress was a 29-year-old cybersystems operator at Buckley Air Force Base. He was gravely injured in the shooting and died at the hospital. Childress, from Palmdale, California, had gone to the movie theater with friends from the base. When the shooting started, he jumped in front of fellow Air Force reservist Munirih Gravelly, saving her life. Childress is one of two active service members who died in the shooting; both will be buried with full military honors.




        At age 51, Gordon Cowden was the oldest of the twelve who died in the theater shooting. The father of four had taken his two teenagers to see The Dark Knight Rises. Cowden’s children were uninjured. Cowden was a native of Austin, Texas, a small business owner, and an avid outdoorsman. His family has expressed a desire for privacy while they mourn.




        Jessica Ghawi was a 24-year-old sportswriter who went by the name Jessica Redfield professionally. She began broadcasting as a student at the University of San Antonio, then moved to Denver to work at Sports Radio 104.3. Ghawi survived a mass shooting incident at the Eaton Centre food court in Toronto last year month, which she wrote about on her blog. Ghawi’s brother Jordan posted a timeline of the events following the shooting on his blog. Ghawi’s companion at the theater, Brent Lowak, was taken to a hospital with two gunshot wounds. You can see outtakes of Ghawi covering the San Antonio Rampage hockey team in this video.




        Navy Petty Officer John Larimer came from Crystal Lake, Illinois. He joined the Navy a year ago and served as a cryptologic technician at Buckley Air Force Base in Aurora. The 27-year-old Larimer was the youngest of five children and a 2003 graduate of Crystal Lake South High School. Four other sailors at the theater that night survived the shooting; one of them was treated for a gunshot wound and released from a hospital.




        Matt McQuinn went to the movie with his girlfriend Samantha Yowler and her brother Nick Yowler. Both men jumped on Samantha to shield her as the shooting began. Nick was unharmed; Samantha suffered a gunshot wound in her leg and underwent surgery. McQuinn was killed. He and Samantha came from Ohio, where they worked together at a Target store in Springfield. They transferred to Colorado last fall. McQuinn was a 2004 graduate of Vandalia-Butler high school in Vandalia, Ohio. He was 27 years old.




        Micayla Medek was a 23-year-old Aurora native. She attended the Community College of Aurora and worked at Subway. Her Facebook profile says “I’m a simple independent girl who’s just trying to get her life together while still having fun.”




        The massacre’s youngest fatality, Veronica Moser-Sullivan, was only six years old. Veronica was proud of her progress in swimming lessons this summer, and excited about starting first grade in the fall. Veronica’s mother, Ashley Moser, was critically injured and is still hospitalized. Moser is pregnant and may be left paralyzed, but the child she is carrying was not injured. Late on Saturday, she learned that her daughter Veronica was one of the victims.




        Alex Sullivan was at the midnight showing to celebrate his 27th birthday. He and his wife Cassandra were still newlyweds, just two days short of their first anniversary when Sullivan was gunned down at the theater in Aurora. Sullivan was an employee of the theater, but was not working at the time of the shooting. His final Tweet relayed his excitement about seeing the movie The Dark Knight Rises on his birthday: “oh man one hour till the movie and its going to be the best BIRTHDAY ever”.

        Comment




        • A native of the Phoenix area, 24-year-old Alex Teves graduated from the University of Arizona in 2010 and had just earned a master’s degree in counseling psychology from the University of Denver in June. He was at the midnight movie with his girlfriend Amanda and was killed while shielding her from the gunfire.




          Rebecca Wingo was the 32-year-old single mother. She came from Quinlan, Texas, and served in the Air Force as a Mandarin Chinese translator. Wingo leaves two young daughters.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by willbird View Post
            One person on the radio said there were 5 off duty LEO working security there for the opening. Now how big the place is, were they ARMED security, etc ??

            That was credited with saving some more seriously wounded victims because the LEO themselves transported them to the hospital within minutes. If any of that really happened I dunno.

            Bill
            Interesting thanx. had not heard that. It may simply have happened too fast for them to respond in time, and any number of factors well out of their control and or their being there may have reduced the death count.

            My personal take:

            Recent events in CO confirmed for me rule #1: HAVE A GUN. An entire theater full of people in a fairly gun friendly state, and (apparently) not one single person in that audience armed. One can debate ballistics all day, and it means not a damn thing if you are not armed when "it" happens. Now, it may have made no difference at all had at least one person their been armed and attempted to return fire, or it may have made all the difference (even people in body armor dont tend to stay still on a two way range), and had 2-3 people - off duty LE or armed civi - been armed and gotten involved well, chances are improved that the number of deaths could have been reduced.

            We will never know however. We do know that in past events, fast as possible armed response is usually a net plus to saving lives.

            Comments by Professor Joseph Olson, J.D., LL.M., Hamline University School of Law after a prior mass shooting of note:

            "A terrible tragedy. I know, I teach on college campus.

            Once he starts to act, the only thing that can stop a single, psychotic killer who is willing to die is the rapid delivery of counter fire by whoever is near. Cop, civilian, it doesn't matter who or their job status. The more people who are nearby and capable of delivering return fire, the fewer and less serious the injuries (there's criminological data on this).

            Virginia Tech. is a "gun free" zone guaranteeing that the psychotic killer had the only gun. He came prepared. He waited until there were no police in sight and then commenced his murderous acts certain that he would encounter no effective resistance. And , he didn't.

            Twenty-one innocent*dead because there was no one capable of fighting back. All they could do was cower or run."
            Last edited by WillBrink; 07-23-2012, 11:19 AM.
            - Will

            Performance/Fitness Advice For the Tactical Community

            www.OptimalSWAT.com

            General Performance/Fitness Advice for all

            www.BrinkZone.com

            Comment


            • Originally posted by WillBrink View Post
              Recent events in CO confirmed for me rule #1: HAVE A GUN. An entire theater full of people in a fairly gun friendly state, and (apparently) not one single person in that audience armed. One can debate ballistics all day, and it means not a damn thing if you are not armed when "it" happens. Now, it may have made no difference at all had at least one person their been armed and attempted to return fire, or it may have made all the difference (even people in body armor dont tend to stay still on a two way range), and had 2-3 people - off duty LE or armed civi - been armed and gotten involved well, chances are improved that the number of deaths could have been reduced.
              Normally I would say an armed presence wouldn't have deterred a guy like this.. These types of shooters are generally prepared -- and willing -- to die in order to accomplish their sick mission. But given the fact that this guy came in body armor and surrendered peacefully to police, I tend to believe that if this guy faced any resistance (from an LEO or armed civilian) he would've backed off. He wanted to stay alive. Why? Who knows.
              "In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." - Martin Luther King, Jr

              Comment


              • Originally posted by WillBrink View Post
                ...Comments by Professor Joseph Olson, J.D., LL.M., Hamline University School of Law after a prior mass shooting of note:

                ["A terrible tragedy. I know, I teach on college campus.

                Once he starts to act, the only thing that can stop a single, psychotic killer who is willing to die is the rapid delivery of counter fire by whoever is near. Cop, civilian, it doesn't matter who or their job status. The more people who are nearby and capable of delivering return fire, the fewer and less serious the injuries (there's criminological data on this)..."
                Yep. In truly extreme situations (maniac pulls weapon and begins killing innocents), constant fire from multiple angles is the name of the game. Granted, I only know how well it works in paint battles.

                If this had gone down during a Texas livestock show, or while a police trade show was happening near the theater, shooter would have been down in 15 seconds.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Jacob2899 View Post
                  Normally I would say an armed presence wouldn't have deterred a guy like this.. These types of shooters are generally prepared -- and willing -- to die in order to accomplish their sick mission. But given the fact that this guy came in body armor and surrendered peacefully to police, I tend to believe that if this guy faced any resistance (from an LEO or armed civilian) he would've backed off. He wanted to stay alive. Why? Who knows.
                  Unknown, but we can't know. We can only guess, but armed response, fast as possible, is (in my view and I think data and experience supports it) is better then no armed response.
                  - Will

                  Performance/Fitness Advice For the Tactical Community

                  www.OptimalSWAT.com

                  General Performance/Fitness Advice for all

                  www.BrinkZone.com

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Jacob2899 View Post
                    Normally I would say an armed presence wouldn't have deterred a guy like this.. These types of shooters are generally prepared -- and willing -- to die in order to accomplish their sick mission. But given the fact that this guy came in body armor and surrendered peacefully to police, I tend to believe that if this guy faced any resistance (from an LEO or armed civilian) he would've backed off. He wanted to stay alive. Why? Who knows.
                    Some reports are saying he was attempting to blend in with responding LEO, bit somebody noticed part of his equipment looked out of place (maybe they never will reveal what that was for tactical reasons) and questioned him, and then arrested him. Who knows what he would have done next if he had went undetected and escaped.

                    Bill
                    Just pay your dues, and be quiet :-)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ComicGuy View Post
                      And continues to rise, like a fart, when she is surrounded by armed security while screaming for everybody else to go around defenceless.
                      Exactly, and there's where all the double standard B.S. applies. These certified morons, and we all know who they are, either live in gated communities, are surrounded by hordes of police/Secret Service Agents, all of whom are carrying those all so awful guns, and live in a world totally divorced from reality. No Rocket Science involved in seeing that. Gotta wonder why so many seemingly intelligent people (sheep) can be taken in by these frauds. But then, P.T. Barnum said it over a hundred years ago. "There's a sucker born every minute". That includes the certified Ding-Bats we all know, and those who actually buy into their Bulls....t.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by willbird View Post
                        Some reports are saying he was attempting to blend in with responding LEO, bit somebody noticed part of his equipment looked out of place (maybe they never will reveal what that was for tactical reasons) and questioned him, and then arrested him. Who knows what he would have done next if he had went undetected and escaped.

                        Bill
                        Probably the bright orange hair.
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                        • Originally posted by willbird View Post
                          Some reports are saying he was attempting to blend in with responding LEO, bit somebody noticed part of his equipment looked out of place (maybe they never will reveal what that was for tactical reasons) and questioned him, and then arrested him. Who knows what he would have done next if he had went undetected and escaped.

                          Bill
                          Think it was the gas mask. Probably among several other signs, but everybody was pleading for masks... and here's some guy with one already on.

                          Comment


                          • I have carried in a Cinemark theatre in Colorado, they are not all "gun-free" zones. Either that, or I missed the sign. Where I live they carry no force of law, I don't even look for them here. I did in Colorado though.

                            This could have been much worse. He had a ballistic helmet, bullet proof vest, neck, groin, and leg protectors. He carried an S&W AR-15 with around 100 rd. mag., a Remington shotgun, and 2 .40 calibre Glock pistols. He did his homework. He carried close to the same assault capability as they guys that were in the Hollywood Shootout in LA a while back. They said that his AR jammed, and then he gave up and went out to his car and waited for responders. He never used the other three arms he brought, at least two of which he brought with him.

                            This could have been much worse. It also could have been not as bad had some of the patrons been armed and with it enough to fire back. Even in the dark chaos, seeing at least a muzzle flash back would make most cease and find cover. Granted, that's not everyone but he didn't own a firearm until a couple months before the shooting. Also with how quickly and easily he gave up. I don't know how I would have reacted, hopefully well enough to save a few lives.

                            He was also in no means a criminal. Up until the murders he did everything legally. With an extremely bright kid like this it doesn't matter if guns were available or not, he would have improvised something. No citizens with guns in China and mass attacks still happen, often with knives because that is what's available.

                            All involved with responding to this event did an excelent job. From the dispatcher to the first responders. Great job.
                            Support bacteria. They're the only culture some people have.

                            Comment


                            • Correction: FoxNews.com now says that he used all three of his guns that he took inside with him.
                              Here is the article. It has more details.
                              Support bacteria. They're the only culture some people have.

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                              • Originally posted by Jere View Post
                                I have carried in a Cinemark theatre in Colorado, they are not all "gun-free" zones. Either that, or I missed the sign. Where I live they carry no force of law, I don't even look for them here. I did in Colorado though.
                                Went to see Batman the other night at the local Cinemark. The signs here in SC carry force of law so I did check at the door and saw none. Made a point of sitting where I could see all the exits. There were officers posted outside the door to the Batman theater, and one came in during the first Batman scene then left again.
                                SCFC Dispatch Manager

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