McVeigh-The End

[Artie]

cbctech,
Sure $82.5 million is a lot of money if you say it was the cost of footing the bill for the case. But those investigators would still have been paid that money had they been involved in the investigation or doing other duties. The money would have been expended no matter what. And really, the money was well spent. The result was the right result.

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We are the Police! Resistance is Futile!

[Niteshift]

cbctech.........dead or alive, we'd still have that bill.

Consider this: It was $85 million for 168 murder victims. That's $505,952.38 per victim. A half million is a little high for a murder case, but almost no capital case goes for less than $1 million. Fortunately, he didn't go through all the appeals (which is the only good thing I can say about him).

In the big picture, he was a bargin.

CopinNY:

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Niteshift-
Perseverate In Pugna

[CopInNY]

I've watched this thread grow into the huge debate that it has become. All I have to say is that I am with Niteshift 110% on this one.

[cbctech]

"McVeigh-The End"

Sounds good but it may not be... It seems now that all us tax-payers are going to have to foot the bill for his defense, somewhere in the neighborhood of $85 million.

" The Justice Department spent $82.5 million investigating and prosecuting the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing "

" The Justice Department budget does not include the expenses of the court-appointed attorneys for McVeigh and Nichols. "

" Nearly three-fourths of the $82.5 million total went to the FBI, which devoted thousands of agents to the case. The FBI's $60.5 million included the equivalent of 259 agents working full-time for a year.

The budget also included expenses incurred by U.S. attorneys' offices, the criminal division of the Justice Department in Washington, the U.S. Marshals Service, the Bureau of Prisons, the Office of Justice Programs, and the fees and expenses of witnesses. "

Justice was served, don't get me wrong, but holy-moly, that's alot of dough...

[RT]

Artie, I don't want to take any of the blame away from McVeigh, but I think by looking back we can learn and this is what I am trying to do in this case. Being a good parent is the hardest job on this earth. I saw an interview with McVeigh's father and he said he could have had a personal visit with his son but his son requested they have glass between them. He also said he had never told his son he loved him that he recalled. That is so sad. But he needs to pay for his crimes regardless.

[Niteshift]

"I myself can only speak about California law, and not about Federal law or your particular state."

Some states do technically require a motion. It's common practice that everything gets turned over, but if it doesn't for some reason, it's not the fault of the prosecution if you didn't ask for it.

"In California the defense in reality doesn't even have to file discovery motion, (although they always do) because the DA automatically provides them with all documents relevant to the case."

This is kind of what I'm talking about. The practice is to give them everything, but there is probably a reason that the defense files the motion anyway, to cover themselves.

"I don't believe that the FBI intentionally withheld the documents, they were negligent"

I agree. There was no conspiracy, just sloppiness. If it was a conspiracy, the documents would have never surfaced.

"I believe his trial as all trials must be conducted with due process."

I believe his was. Even after the documents surfaced, his lawyers could find nothing that would make a difference.

"It isn't the responsibility of the FBI or AG to decide what may or may not be beneficial to the defense. It is not up to the FBI or the AG to decide if the documents would or would not prove his innocence, it is the responsibility of the jury to decide his innocence or guilt."

Agreed.

"Because they withheld evidence in a capital case, unintentionally or not, and as much as I hate to say it, I don't think he had proper due process of law!"

I disagree. Aside from the fact that he confessed and ordered his lawyers to stop appealing, the lawyers reviewed the documents and couldn't find anything to hang their hat on. They really didn't even make an attempt because, as it turned out, the documents really were pretty useless. Had there been anything of use, the lawyers would have brought it forward and a judge would have ordered a retrial.




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Niteshift-
Perseverate In Pugna

I saw mention of the fact that McVeigh had been "created" a terrorist...
Actually, the military has names for people who commit acts of domestic terrorism and kill innocent civilians--they call them "enemies of the state".
The military doesn't create mass murderers; although it's quite likely that McVeigh gravitated to the military in an effort to sublimate the aggression within him.

Putting people like this to death may be barbaric--but it's definitely an effective means of neutralizing their threat to society. McVeigh is one guy I'll be happy never to have to worry about again.

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You did what?!

[This message has been edited by TigerLily (edited 06-13-2001).]

[Dukeboy01]

Hey, me and some of my buddies were shooting the breeze between calls and came up with an alternative to the death penalty. You take the condemmned and surgically amputate his/ her arms and legs. Next, you surgically remove their vocal chords, inner ear drums, teeth, and eyes. (The eyes could be used for organ donation!) Then you give 'em a colostomy (Is this the correct term?) so that to remove their wastes, all you have to do is change out the bag. Hook 'em up to a feeding tube, stick 'em on a giant ward, and hire a few nurses to change the bags. No chance of escape and minimal cost to the taxpayer. No chance of them ever being able to hurt another human being, including the caretakers. (Can't even bite them, no teeth.) They get to spend the rest of their natural lives deaf, blind, mute, and crapping into a bag. No need for maximum security measurements and society doesn't have to feel squishy about the state taking a human life.

I bet you could make it an alternative to the condemned and 99.99% of them would decide that they didn't fear the reaper after all.

[Artie]

Mac90,
Ok Artie I understand. Nothing works against the government so just take it right?

No, that

[RT]

I know they will never feel closure but they will be relieved that justice is done and they don't have to think about McVeigh anymore. I don't know if I could forgive him either, but I would not be bitter because being bitter helps no one, so maybe this is their way of not being bitter.

[jellybean40]

From what i watched, interviews i had seen, family members/loved ones who lost ppl in the bombing, had gotten to the point where they didnt expect to get closure from McVeigh's death. they know it wont change anything. they believe it's justice carried out, and the "right thing to do" in this case, and i do also. the fact is, their lives where changed the day he murdered their loved ones.

somehow some of them have found a way to forgive him, which i cant imagine, but i CAN imagine that holding on to so much hatred and anger would only make their lives worse. so in order to cope and go on with their lives, they HAD to find a way.


[This message has been edited by jellybean40 (edited 06-12-2001).]

[retired]

Niteshift and Artie,

First for Niteshift, I respect your opinions and input into this forum. I myself can only speak about California law, and not about Federal law or your particular state. Although I would think the discovery motions in most states and in federal court would be similar. In California the defense in reality doesn't even have to file discovery motion, (although they always do) because the DA automatically provides them with all documents relevant to the case. However, the defense in their discovery motion always asks for ALL documents, all statements, all witness reports, etc everything that applies to the case. So in my opinion, and I don't believe that the FBI intentionally withheld the documents, they were negligent and as such, even though Mcveigh needed to be executed, I believe his trial as all trials must be conducted with due process. It isn't the responsibility of the FBI or AG to decide what may or may not be beneficial to the defense. It is not up to the FBI or the AG to decide if the documents would or would not prove his innocence, it is the responsibility of the jury to decide his innocence or guilt. Because they withheld evidence in a capital case, unintentionally or not, and as much as I hate to say it, I don't think he had proper due process of law!

For Artie, McVeigh admitted he committed the crime after the trial and after he was found guilty, and I agree, he should have been found guilty and executed. However, there are numerous cases here in the US where the accused has been released because of procedural flaws in the law, which are just as important as substantive laws. We can't pick and choose who gets due process and who doesn't

My point is because McVeigh committed such a heinous and ruthless act, many are willing to overlook what I consider a violation of due process. If it can happen to an ******* like McVeigh, what is to prevent it from happening to an innocent person, or to you or me? In order to maintain strict fairness in our justice system for everyone, even the monsters must be allowed their due process right.

So in closing, let me reiterate, I am not a supporter of McVeigh, nor do I condone his actions in any sense of the word. I am a supporter of our constitution.

I appreciate the comments from both of you.

Retired

[RT]

Artie, I don't feel sorry for him, I think it is possible that he could have turned out different if he had a father to pull him back to reality. I work with juveniles and we identify them as targets, when they have had 3 felony arrest as a juvenile they are identified as targets. I took a stack of targets from our office and found that 90% had no father listed. About 6% had a step father. The rest had a father. I think the lack of fathers in families is one of the biggest problems in our society today. As far as McVeigh, he was a crusader against bullies as a child. He believed strongly in the cause and went into his own private world. Later he went deeper and deeper into this private world. He saw the government as the bully and read in the Turner Diaries that taking out a federal building was the way to get back at the government. He was in a fantasy world that he created and he lived in it till the day he died. The really sad thing is he was against big government which a lot of people are but the anti-government movement took a huge hit when he blew up the bomb. I think in real life in a free society we have a lot of ways to affect our government but violence is never one of the options. I do think the people who blow up abortion clinics do much more harm to their cause than good too. Same principle.

[Niteshift]

"I believe the courts have ruled for years that all evidence that could provide a defense MUST be turned over prior to trial."

Actually, no. They have to turn over what the defense requests in their discovery motion. It's not just automatic.

"Out of the 4000+ documents just recently released the govt. claims that "only 9 of them would have helped his defense" Should not make any difference if it was 9 or 900, the govt. failed to follow the procedures that have been in place for years."

Making a mistake a a government conspiracy to "side-step" the law are not the same thing.

Evidently, there was some truth to it. Even McVeigh's attorneys couldn't find anything helpful in there, especially considering their client confessed. How do you defend a guy that say, I did it?

"As for the leg, I guess it is possible that the leg was carried in someones (mcveigh's???) pocket to the scene."

Could it have been in one of the govt. offices? As evidence?

"I have a difficult time believing that they "thought" they were explosive devices in the heat of the moment, deactivated them and removed them to only say later that the were not what they thought they were."

Why not? Bomb squads blow up or "deactivate" suspected devices all the time, only to find out they weren't bombs.

"Especiall when DOD documents clearly show that EOD personnel deactivated 2 explosive devices."

Again, how do we know they weren't in the BATF offices or something similar?

Do you believe everything you hear?

"and I can't help but feel that the C.J system slipped on this one."

How? He CONFESSED. There was enough evidence without his confession to convict him. How did it slip? The right guy went to jail and was put to death. The evidence said he was the right guy. McVeigh said he was the right guy.

I think you've been reading the Spotlight too much.




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Niteshift-
Perseverate In Pugna

[Rule.303]

Originally posted by Niteshift:

Until the unidentified leg is identified as having belonged to a person that was alive and in the building before the explosion, the answer is 168. Can you say for absolute certainty that there was a living person attached to it prior to the explosion?

This is true. We had a case in Australia in the 1970's where a severed leg was located washed up on a beach near Sydney. Forensic examination of the leg revealed that it had been severed by way of a knife or similar sharp instrument (not a shark). Tattoos on the leg identified it's owner. Without going into all the evidence surrounding the case, two men were arrested and charged with murder. Both were aquitted as the court stated, "The severed leg alone does not establish that the person from whom it was removed is either alive or dead, and thus no evidence of death has been established."