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10 years after Michigan's new shall-issue CCW law into effect.

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  • 10 years after Michigan's new shall-issue CCW law into effect.

    http://www.freep.com/article/2011073...text|FRONTPAGE

    First of two parts

    Ten years after Michigan made it much easier for its citizens to get a license to carry a concealed gun, predictions of widespread lawless behavior and bloodshed have failed to materialize.

    Today, nearly 276,000 -- or about four out of every 100 eligible adult Michiganders -- are licensed.

    That's more than twice the number predicted when the debate raged over whether Michigan should join the growing ranks of so-called "shall issue" states.

    Before July 1, 2001, applicants had to prove why they needed to carry a gun for protection. Since then, any nominally sane adult without a felony record qualifies.

    During the debate, opponents of the change warned of gun-toting, trigger-happy citizens loose on the streets.

    But violent crimes have been rare among carrying a concealed weapon license holders. Only 2% of license holders have been sanctioned for any kind of misbehavior, State Police records show.

    Still, anti-gun activists say changing the law was a grave mistake. The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence Web site describes state reforms like the one enacted in Michigan as "a recipe for disaster."

    Michigan's prosecuting attorneys association led the push against changing the law in 2001. Today, Ionia County Prosecutor Ronald Schafer, president of the group, says it's hard to remember what the fuss was about.

    "I think you can look back and say, 'It was a big nothing.' "
    Concealed weapons haven't changed state much, both sides of debate say

    It was only 10 years ago. But it seems more like another lifetime, when one of the biggest issues facing Michigan's politicians and the public was whether to make it easier for ordinary citizens to obtain permits to carry concealed weapons.

    At the time, advocates and opponents raged, hurling arguments about bedrock constitutional freedoms and Columbine massacres on every corner.

    The reformers -- who wanted Michigan to join the growing number of states where carrying a concealed gun is the right of any nominally sane adult without a felony record -- sneaked the legislation through in a lame duck session (and managed to immunize it from potential referendum). They predicted it would usher in a new era of civility as criminals came to realize they weren't the only ones on the street packing heat.

    The opponents gnashed teeth about an impending bloodbath.

    What happened?

    By nearly all accounts, not much.

    The number of citizens issued Concealed Pistol Licenses has soared. In 2001 when the law took effect, about 52,000 people were authorized to carry concealed weapons in Michigan (in most counties, permits were limited to retired police officers and those deemed by authorities to have a need, such as cash couriers).

    Since then, the number has grown to nearly 276,000.

    But the effects on Michigan's civil society appear to have been far less dramatic.

    Whether licensing more people to carry concealed weapons results in more or less violent crime remains debatable. Michigan still has more than its fair share of crime, even as overall crime rates have mostly declined. But it's difficult to argue that CCWs have much impact either way.

    Paul Long, president of the Michigan Catholic Conference, was part of the vocal opposition to CCW reform in 2001. He helped organize church-related participation in a petition drive aimed at repealing the law (the one short-circuited by a provision in the CCW legislation that made it referendum-proof).

    But asked last week about his current views, Long said, "In all honesty, I don't give it much thought. It just hasn't been much of an issue."

    One factor contributing to the decline in the focus on gun regulations was everything that happened in the intervening years. Months after Michigan enacted more permissive CCW licensing, the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks stunned the country. The country went to war and later into an economic tailspin.

    "There haven't been as many incidents as we feared," said Tom Hendrickson, executive director of the Michigan Association of Chiefs of Police, which vigorously opposed the reforms.

    "It really hasn't been an issue ... because so many superseding issues came along," he said. "In the total scheme of things, it just faded away."

    Oakland County Sheriff Michael Bouchard said he has always been a proponent of people being able to protect themselves. The troublemakers, generally, aren't the people who go through the process to legally own and carry a gun -- it's the people who carry illegally who cause problems, he said.

    "My position was, and still is, is that the people we have a problem with with guns aren't the people who are willing to follow the law and go through the hoops and training," Bouchard said.

    Wayne County Sheriff Benny Napoleon said he had been opposed to the law and was concerned about flooding the streets with guns. But, he said, "it has turned out not as bad as I suspected that it would."

    Napoleon said he would like to see expanded training for people seeking concealed weapons permits.

    Advocates for concealed carry rights contend they have been vindicated. Violent crime is down, said Steve Dulan, a board member for the Michigan Coalition of Responsible Gun Owners.

    CCW holders, in the aggregate, have been shown to be more law-abiding than the broader public, he said.

    "The debate is pretty much over, and we won," Dulan said.

    Washtenaw County Prosecutor Brian Mackie wouldn't go that far. Mackie opposed the 2001 law, and resigned from the county gun board so that he wouldn't be put in the position of authorizing permits for applicants he considered sketchy.

    But, on balance, "we've done better than I thought," Mackie said, "We've had far fewer violations by (permit) holders than I feared we would."

    Mackie would still like to see more effective procedures to screen for mental instability among applicants.

    Ionia County Prosecutor Ronald Schafer said the raging debate that preceded enactment of the new CCW law appears, in retrospect, to have been a little overwrought.

    "We were all a little too caught up imagining what might happen," he said.



    SHOCKING!! Maybe the rest of the states should take note.

    Edited to add: should say "WENT into effect"....
    Originally posted by RSGSRT
    We've reached a point where natural selection doesn't have a chance in hell of keeping up with the procreation of imbeciles.
    Why is it acceptable for you to be an idiot, but not acceptable for me to point it out?

  • #2

    Same thing here in VA. Our "shall issue" law went into effect back in 1995 (God bless former Gov. Allen!) and the same 'bloodbath' and 'carnage on the streets' was predicted -- and just the opposite occurred.

    VA has seen a lower violent crime rate, while DC and MD (both very anti-gun in every respect) have both seen higher crime than in VA, particularly crimes involving the use of firearms.

    Odd, isn't it? Every time a state moves towards a 'shall issue' or 'concealed-carry' provision for private citizens, the loonies come out of the woodwork caterwauling about mayhem, murder and debauchery on every street. This, of course, runs counter to the reality of what happens when more "good guys" are able to be armed and defend ourselves.

    They're making the same predictions about Illinois, too! {{ Shrug!! }}

    The comments above reflect my personal opinion as a private citizen, ordinary motorist and all-around good guy.

    The aforementioned advice should not be construed to represent any type of professional opinion, legal counsel or other type of instruction with regard to traffic laws, judicial proceedings or official agency policy.

    ------------------------------------------------

    "Ignorance on fire is hotter than knowledge on ice."

    Comment


    • #3
      Shall Issue went into effect on 1-1-11 in Iowa.

      Dire predictions of gloom and doom failed to materialize except in the Sheriff's Offices where there were long lines for the new permits.....................for the first 3 months. Now it is just about like it was when we had a may issues state.


      Nobody is running around open carrying (it is allowed by the new law IF you have a permit)

      The sky didn't fall.
      Since some people need to be told by notes in crayon .......Don't PM me with without prior permission. If you can't discuss the situation in the open forum ----it must not be that important

      My new word for the day is FOCUS, when someone irritates you tell them to FOCUS

      Comment


      • #4
        Well, I know I try to shoot at least one random person a week to make sure the pansy reporters have something to complain about. If I can't do that, I just fire off all the heat seeking bullets in my assault clip from my machine gun, the one with the shoulder thing that goes up.
        There are basically two kinds of people in this world. Those that believe in the moon landing and those that don't.
        http://unistat76.blogspot.com/

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by unistat View Post
          well, i know i try to shoot at least one random person a week to make sure the pansy reporters have something to complain about. If i can't do that, i just fire off all the heat seeking bullets in my assault clip from my machine gun, the one with the shoulder thing that goes up.
          lol!
          Originally posted by RSGSRT
          We've reached a point where natural selection doesn't have a chance in hell of keeping up with the procreation of imbeciles.
          Why is it acceptable for you to be an idiot, but not acceptable for me to point it out?

          Comment


          • #6
            So that big long story was a non-story about predicted drama that never truly materialized, except that the state got a good infusion of unanticipated cash in the form of licensing fees.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by justaj View Post
              so that big long story was a non-story about predicted drama that never truly materialized, except that the state got a good infusion of unanticipated cash in the form of licensing fees.
              bingo!
              Originally posted by RSGSRT
              We've reached a point where natural selection doesn't have a chance in hell of keeping up with the procreation of imbeciles.
              Why is it acceptable for you to be an idiot, but not acceptable for me to point it out?

              Comment


              • #8
                Colorado went "shall issue" a while back, and the streets went red with blood.
                Oh, wait...no they didn't.
                sigpic
                Don't make me gassy.
                You wouldn't LIKE me when I'm gassy...
                _________________________________

                If you're offended by something that I've said...it was just your turn.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Aerohead View Post


                  Still, anti-gun activists say changing the law was a grave mistake. The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence Web site describes state reforms like the one enacted in Michigan as "a recipe for disaster."
                  .
                  With all the data showing no such "recipe" exists. Data to date suggests RTC/SI laws either reduce crime over all, or have no impact on crime. Yup, sounds like the usual "Don't confuse us with the facts" Brady Bunch attempt at gun control.

                  It’s easy to put together some correlational info that is without proper context or missing data or fails to account for other variables. Anti gun types, being inherently intellectually dishonest, are specialists at that. They appear to feel the end justifies the means, so if ignoring history and fudging facts and data gets guns banned, that’s OK with them. A fun and simple example of how to do it:

                  Every year the Brady Bunch gives each state a grade for their gun laws. As you would expect (as they being a anti gun/pro gun control oriented group), states with strict gun control laws get high grades and states with less strict laws get lower grades:


                  STATE . . . . . . Brady Grade,

                  New York . . . . . . B+
                  Vermont . . . . . . . D-
                  New Hampshire . . D-
                  Maine . . . . . . . . . D-
                  Massachusetts . . . A-
                  Connecticut . . . . . A-
                  Rhode Island . . . . B-

                  Now, lets compare each of those states to the actual crime rates:


                  2005 FBI UCR data of crime/homicide rates per 100,000 people:

                  Region . . . Violent Crime, Homicide Rates
                  USA National . . 569.2 , 5.6
                  New York . . . . 445.8 , 4.5
                  Vermont . . . . . 119.7 , 1.3
                  New Hampshire 132.0 , 1.4
                  Maine . . . . . . . 112.2 , 1.4
                  Massachusetts . 456.9 , 2.7
                  Connecticut . . . 274.5 , 2.9
                  Rhode Island . . 251.2 , 3.2

                  Conclusion: if you want to find the safest place to live in the US, chose the state with the WORST grade from the Brady bunch! Aint playing with numbers fun?
                  - Will

                  Performance/Fitness Advice For the Tactical Community

                  www.OptimalSWAT.com

                  General Performance/Fitness Advice for all

                  www.BrinkZone.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by WillBrink View Post
                    ...It’s easy to put together some correlational info that is without proper context or missing data or fails to account for other variables. Anti gun types, being inherently intellectually dishonest, are specialists at that...
                    "There are three kinds of lies. Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics." -Mark Twain
                    There are basically two kinds of people in this world. Those that believe in the moon landing and those that don't.
                    http://unistat76.blogspot.com/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Unistat View Post
                      "There are three kinds of lies. Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics." -Mark Twain
                      Yes, a favorite quote for me.
                      - Will

                      Performance/Fitness Advice For the Tactical Community

                      www.OptimalSWAT.com

                      General Performance/Fitness Advice for all

                      www.BrinkZone.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        MI had "may issue" before "shall issue" didn't it ? That is less day and night than Ohio was, Ohio went from NO legal CC to shall issue. We had an affirmative defense (the law said in a situation where a prudent man would arm himself, still true for loaded long guns in a vehicle) before the shall issue law that probably had SOME impact.

                        Prior to any CC law...
                        Guys I knew that worked at gun stores said LE local to them took it as a given that they carried, and I am sure there were other trades/professions that got the more or less "good to go" status as well. From what I understand about "may issue" more rural counties (if a county agency issues) tend to issue more, maybe because the issuing authority actually knows the individuals better ? I know a guy from Mass and whoever issued his has no issue with the "right kind" of people as he sees it having a CC..."right kind" being adults with jobs who shave now and then as I took it.
                        Just pay your dues, and be quiet :-)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by willbird View Post

                          Prior to any CC law...
                          Guys I knew that worked at gun stores said LE local to them took it as a given that they carried, and I am sure there were other trades/professions that got the more or less "good to go" status as well. From what I understand about "may issue" more rural counties (if a county agency issues) tend to issue more, maybe because the issuing authority actually knows the individuals better ? I know a guy from Mass and whoever issued his has no issue with the "right kind" of people as he sees it having a CC..."right kind" being adults with jobs who shave now and then as I took it.

                          When Iowa was a "may issue" state, one of our LE STATE ACADEMY certified WEAPONS instructors lived in a county where the sheriff just plain refused to issue weapons permits to anyone. The sheriff refused to give him a permit.

                          This is a guy who like i said was certified by the Iowa Law Enforcement Academy to teach and qualify LEO's----stupid.
                          Since some people need to be told by notes in crayon .......Don't PM me with without prior permission. If you can't discuss the situation in the open forum ----it must not be that important

                          My new word for the day is FOCUS, when someone irritates you tell them to FOCUS

                          Comment

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