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  • #76
    Those idiots don't even know what "common law" means. While I'm a bit fuzzy on it myself, my understanding is that it's something along the lines of law based primarily on judicial ruling and precedent rather than legislation. It's not, as these clowns claim, an every man for himself system where the only law is, "Be nice." Common law can trample rights just as quickly as legislation can. ANY legal system can.
    "If the police have to come get you, they're bringing an @$$ kicking with them!"
    -Chris Rock

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    • #77
      The Canadian sovereign movement is pretty big, from what I've seen, with four main submovements:

      1) The "Freeman Upon the Land" led by Robert-Arthur of the Menard Family (this is your pothead contingency and it's huge in the Ontario area)

      2) Remnants of the Truth Language movement, as taught by King of Hawaii avid-Wynn: Miller (he is the King of Hawaii because he was able to convert Hawaii into a verb...)

      3) The UCC Redemption movement, led by Mary Croft

      4) Left-overs from the old school Christian Patriot movement from the 1980s and 1990s. These are either ex-pat Americans or older Canadians who came in contact with hard-core US believers who moved to Canada

      The Moorish Temple type sovereigns (African Americans) and the phony Native American tribe type of sovereigns are just starting to appear in Eastern Canada and it will be interesting to see if they get a foothold.
      Last edited by jjmacnab; 06-10-2011, 02:21 PM. Reason: Turned off emoticon.

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      • #78
        If you want to glance at how big the Canadian movement is, check out Menard's forum, 73,000 posts and it was only set up in 2009.

        http://forum.worldfreemansociety.org/index.php

        Be sure to put a tinfoil hat on before venturing there.

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        • #79
          Yes, the videos I've seen have been mostly the Freeman on the land types, yapping on and on about how they aren't driving a car, it's a personal conveyance, etc. Honestly I'm surprised by the level of patience shown by the police during these encounters. I've only seen one dash-cam video where things start to go all pear-shaped, but that guy was apparently intoxicated as well as unlicensed and uninsured. Very weird.

          I've checked out that forum before; it's like you're entering another dimension. I just don't understand how that many people can all be that out of touch with reality and somehow survive day to day. Although for many of them, it appears that the drugs help.

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          • #80
            From JJ's wesite...

            "The nation’s leading expert on sovereign citizens, tax protesters, and other right wing extremist movements."

            This has me thinking...who are the leading experts on anarchist, animal rights, environmental and other left wing extremist movements?

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            • #81
              merlin436, I don't understand your post. However, that might just be due to having visited the above-mentioned Freeman forum for the last 10 minutes or so, my brain is a bit addled right now.

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              • #82
                JJ,
                I think thats the link I posted! It was entertaining. The lack of an explanation for some of the stuff was priceless.
                For the cops out there: You are an adult. If you want to write someone, write them. If you don't want to write someone, then don't write them.

                "Jeff, you are the best cop on this board"-Anonymous Post

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                • #83
                  Dealt with the moorish in the west LA area when I worked at our Marina station. They don't like me very much and a after a few meetings they decided to play exclusively in LAPD's area. Never met a Moorish I didn't take to jail.
                  Today's Quote:

                  "The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits."
                  Albert Einstein

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                  • #84
                    Don't forget the famous, Wesley Snipes jumped on the band wagon to try and avoid paying income tax. Didn't work out so well for him........
                    Today's Quote:

                    "The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits."
                    Albert Einstein

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by ImperialCop
                      If anarchists are left wing then aren’t sovereign citizens, too?
                      No. The political statements, goals, and rhetoric for a typical sovereign citizen are straight out of Posse Comitatus and Montana Freemen playbook of the 1980s/1990s. Much of the earlier white supremacist hyperbole has been toned down, although the anti-Semitism streak is still running strong, but the overall political ideals are the same. Spend some time reading sovereign rants and manifestos and you'll see that they clearly fall in the extremist side of the right wing spectrum.

                      This is not insulting or demeaning to conservative Americans, any more than eco-terrorists reflect badly on liberals, or the Ku Klux Klan is a poster child for mainstream Christianity. Every large groups has its freaky fringe. At this point in time, it's the right's fringe that are the most active. 30 years ago, it was the extremist left's turn, and 10 years from now, it could very well be the left fringe's turn in the limelight again.

                      Give me anarchists any day, they might hate you and be anti-government but at least they don’t live in a fantasy world. If you arrest an anarchist they might call you a government jackbooted pig, but at least they don’t claim you have no right to arrest them.
                      The cult-like belief in that fantasy world is what makes sovereigns so potentially dangerous. They fervently believe that they are heroes and that cops are pawns at best and inherently evil at worst. Therefore, dying in a shootout with police while defending those fantastic beliefs is a just and honorable thing to do.

                      With all due respect JJ, you’re using argument ad hominem to make a point. That is not something an expert would do.
                      What argument ad hominem is that?

                      Out of curiosity, what do you think my political leanings are?

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                      • #86
                        In my opinion, some groups are too far outside the mainstream to fit comfortably on a "Left-Right" spectrum. Even Libertarians, who are decidedly more orthodox than SCs, can't really be placed left or right excpet on an issue by issue basis.

                        The 2-axis "government control v. freedom/economic planned v. free market chart does a little better, but it does not account for groups that have an extreme religious componant in their ideology.

                        All in all, I personally just lump these "outsider" groups into the fringe catagory. Right-left doesn't help me understand them anyway and may lead me to make an incorrect assumption about their motives or ideology.
                        There are basically two kinds of people in this world. Those that believe in the moon landing and those that don't.
                        http://unistat76.blogspot.com/

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Unistat View Post
                          In my opinion, some groups are too far outside the mainstream to fit comfortably on a "Left-Right" spectrum. Even Libertarians, who are decidedly more orthodox than SCs, can't really be placed left or right excpet on an issue by issue basis.

                          The 2-axis "government control v. freedom/economic planned v. free market chart does a little better, but it does not account for groups that have an extreme religious componant in their ideology.
                          I quite agree.

                          All in all, I personally just lump these "outsider" groups into the fringe catagory. Right-left doesn't help me understand them anyway and may lead me to make an incorrect assumption about their motives or ideology.
                          The right/left issue becomes relevant when aspects of the fringe elements start bleeding into the more mainstream groups. In my book, I call this the trickle up effect. Sovereign theories don't trickle up into liberal rhetoric, but they are indeed oozing into conservative rhetoric.

                          It's also interesting when those in the mainstream group have some pivotal event in their lives that effectively topples them into the fringe. Up until very recently, it wasn't struggling liberals that fell for sovereign citizen scams, it was desperate or angry conservatives.

                          I think it's why so many posters here took offense that I published my article in the SPLC magazine. They have some sympathy for sovereign politics and ideals, they just don't stomach the absurd and violent sovereign methodology.

                          But, as I've mentioned earlier in this thread, in the past couple of years, the movement is changing and a growing number of left wing people are subscribing to sovereign schemes. But it isn't political ideology that drives them there; it's usually greed and/or desperation. A growing number of sovereigns are looking for easy money (house squatting / debt elimination / writing fake US Treasury checks) or a get-out-of-jail-free card, but don't give a damn about the founding fathers or the US Constitutional issues. The downturn in the economy has done wonders for sovereign recruiting.

                          Even more new recruits are learning sovereign techniques while incarcerated. Imagine if you're serving a long prison sentence and someone sells you or your family a package that claims you could get out of prison in the next few weeks if you just file a couple of dozens pieces of paper.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by ImperialCop
                            You called them extremists. I agree, I think they are as well. But I'd use scientific principle to come to that conclusion, not just saying "They are extremists so must be wrong".
                            This is an internet forum, not a scientific journal. I'm not going to do the footnote thing here either.

                            You also just called them anti-Semitism and white supremacists. I'm sorry but that's just a complete fabrication, in my experience whenever anyone uses the 'anti-Semite' or 'Nazi' card they are clinging at straws.
                            You would be incorrect. You might want to google Christian Identity, the Montana Freemen, and Posse Comitatus.

                            I've met plenty of sovereign citizens before, and not one has ever displayed any sign of racism. They are fundamentalists and believe in their own idea of common law, most of them can be violent and unstable, but I don’t see how that makes them racist. I'm sure there are racist sovereign citizens, but I'm sure there are plenty of racist liberals, too. That doesn't mean all liberals are Nazis.
                            Curious. Here's what you wrote three days ago. Did you suddenly meet a lot of sovereigns?

                            I'm not an American officer and the sovereign citizen movement doesn't exist here. That being said I'm interested in them and have learned quite a bit. Are you a sovereign citizen?

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by jjmacnab View Post
                              It's also interesting when those in the mainstream group have some pivotal event in their lives that effectively topples them into the fringe. Up until very recently, it wasn't struggling liberals that fell for sovereign citizen scams, it was desperate or angry conservatives.
                              This reminds me of what my wife says about schizophrenics. When they have their break, their delusions follow some aspect important to their lives. For instance, the religious folks will think they're angels, the political minded might think the Fed is spying on them, etc.
                              There are basically two kinds of people in this world. Those that believe in the moon landing and those that don't.
                              http://unistat76.blogspot.com/

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by ImperialCop
                                I have no love for sovereign citizens, but I don't use the Nazi card. Godwin's law.
                                Yeah but if it quacks like a duck...

                                It isn't invoking Godwin's Law if the group in question really are racial supremicists.
                                There are basically two kinds of people in this world. Those that believe in the moon landing and those that don't.
                                http://unistat76.blogspot.com/

                                Comment

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