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Philadelphia PD won't Look the Other Way on Open-Carry Gun Owners

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  • #31
    Originally posted by eyesopen View Post
    Not on this issue per se, I am a gun owner but don't open carry, don't care for the attitudes of many open carry people and don't have a desire to open carry, but I take issue with requiring proof license for a legal activity with no reasonable suspicion. Let's take your words and apply them to other activities, and the police stopping a person absent any other legal reason to detain the individual:

    If the stop is brief and the person is free to go once the officers ascertain that the person is legitimately driving with a driver's license (absent any other legal reason to detain the individual), I see no problem with this.

    If the stop is brief and the person is free to go once the officers ascertain that the Hispanic person buying a soda at the local Quickmart is legally here in the USA (absent any other legal reason to detain the individual), I see no problem with this.

    If the stop is brief and the person is free to go once the officers ascertain that the person in the Century 21 coat walking a family around the outside of a home is a legitimately licensed real estate agent (absent any other legal reason to detain the individual), I see no problem with this.

    If the stop is brief and the person is free to go once the officers ascertain that the person is driving a plumbing company truck is legitimately a licensed plumber (absent any other legal reason to detain the individual), I see no problem with this.

    If the stop is brief and the person is free to go once the officers ascertain that the person pushing a mower on the front lawn of a house is the owner or has permission by the owner to be on the property (absent any other legal reason to detain the individual), I see no problem with this.

    Its slippery 4th Amendment slope you're advocating. In my state the police can't require ID if there is no reasonable suspicion that a crime has been or is about to be committed.
    The point you are missing is that the actions of this individual were ABNORMAL (as in, not normal).

    Like it or not, legal or not, the open carry of a firearm is almost unheard of in Philly. Couple this with the fact that unlicensed possession of a firearm (which is considered a Deadly Weapon under law) is a criminal act, and there is reasonable suspicion for the Investigative Detention.

    Now, if it was a normal thing for people to carry firearms openly in Philly your logic would be correct. Had this occurred in a rural area of PA where the open carry of firearms is routine, your logic would be correct.

    This is no different than investigatively detaining a person who is walking away from a closed electronics store, in the middle of the night, carrying a brand-new (and packaged) DVD Player. The action itself is perfectly legal, and at this specific point there is no Probable Cause for an arrest, but there IS Reasonable Suspicion to detain the person (and yes, that means against his will and with force if necessary) in order to conduct a short investigation. While the Courts have not officially set a specific time-limit, the majority of elements in the Criminal Justice System consider two hours to be the mark.

    -V
    Last edited by vincelli; 05-23-2011, 11:27 AM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by SGT53 View Post
      +1

      Had this guy followed directions of the Officer, instead of running his mouth it would have been cleared up soon after his encounter. He made the decision to run his mouth, and to have a recorder at the ready, he was looking for a Police encounter so he could have a video to post.

      His "privilege" to carry should be revoked.
      Can't agree more with the first part of your post. This guy was obviously looking for trouble. The thing that ****es me off with some of these open carry folks is not that they are exercising their rights, it's the attitude that they have and the disrespect they give the officer that is just trying to do his or her job.

      I hope your reference to carrying as a privilege is sarcastic which I would assume by the quotes.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by SgtScott31 View Post
        One could ask the same about stats regarding an actual crime deterred or criminal stopped because of the weapon exposed.
        Sure... one could ask that, but that's not the question. If there is truth to the logic that people who OC are targets for criminals, there certainly must be some criminal stats to back that up.

        The only way around that is to say that anyone who OC's doesn't report a stolen firearm...

        Originally posted by Aerohead View Post
        And as far as "being cuffed and blah blah blah blah blah" that people are whining about:

        note the "may" part - which means that it is up to the officers discretion
        The problem with that logic is that this officer wasn't, "up to date" on OC laws.

        Which means that permit or not, as far as the cop is concerned he's certain he's dealing with a felon. Otherwise he wouldn't have stated with such certainty that OC is illegal in PA. Think about it. If you saw someone do something that you are 100% certain is a felony, how much discretion would you exercise in your dealing with them?

        In the end, the guy is stuck there for at least 40 minutes if not longer until all that got sorted out anyways. Again, I'm not justifying his actions, but he was damned either way. The only problem he now faces is the charges for not complying.

        [QUOTE]Why are they charging him now that the video is posted?! Hmmm...probably to deter other idiots from wiring themselves with audio/video, strapping a gun on their hips, and walking around the city looking for confrontations with the police so they can be the next internet hit - not to mention that they now have video proof of his dumb act to show in court (I believe that is called a "SLAM DUNK!"). And just because YOU wouldn't do it, doesn't mean that there aren't other people who won't.

        Okay, so it is a retaliatory move on the DA's part. Not saying that it's right or wrong, but let's call a spade a spade. They're mad that this got out, and want to make a statement - plain and simple.

        Now as for him, how is he looking for a confrontation with the cops? If he really wanted to make a statement, he would have OC'd in broad daylight, in front of city hall, a court house, a post office, a police or fire station, with his buddy operating a video camera on him the entire time... anything other than walking into a freakin auto parts store!

        THAT would be clear cut proof of someone making a statement and trying to antagonize the police.

        Remember the guy carrying an automatic weapon at an Obama rally in Arizona? THAT is someone trying to make a statement or bait the cops.

        See how stepping back and using a little bit of common sense can answer your questions...
        No need to get snippy now. Sheesh. I'm a Red Wings fan too and was bummed that they lost to the Sharks but come on... let's keep it civilized.
        John Q. Citizen

        They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by JQC View Post
          Now as for him, how is he looking for a confrontation with the cops? If he really wanted to make a statement, he would have OC'd in broad daylight, in front of city hall, a court house, a post office, a police or fire station, with his buddy operating a video camera on him the entire time... anything other than walking into a freakin auto parts store!
          Yeah, cause I always open-carry while walking to the auto-parts store, in a major city where open-carry is pretty much unheard of, with a tape recorder specifically carried "in case the cops approach me", in the MIDDLE OF FREAKIN WINTER WITH NO JACKET!

          You're a moron.

          -V
          Last edited by vincelli; 05-23-2011, 12:23 PM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Lendog View Post
            Why would anyone ever want to open carry? All it does is invite criminals to target you first and the police will always be answering calls because of you. I see no point in showing off that I have a weapon.
            Why they DO and why they would might be far different.

            There are people who can legally own a gun but they cannot get a CCW for a variety of reasons (Ohio as one example had no CCW avail to anybody until 2004), the most mundane being a new resident in that state...ranging all the way to convictions that will not allow them to get a CCW, but they can legally own and use a gun.

            Also in time of natural disaster like Katrina or things. Ohio's (as lone example) emergency CCW requirements do not allow issue for that reason. There is an affirmative defense for a loaded rifle/shotgun in a car under those circumstances, but not loaded handguns.

            So there ARE some people who have a valid reason they cannot CCW, I'll be the first to admit that most OC is not by those people.

            Riding a bicycle I can carry a full sized pistol OC, it would be tough to CC the same gun in most biking attire. In the winter I have carried CC using an OWB holster, taking the jacket off for some reason turns it into OC.

            One case in Ohio was heading down the road for a decision that a gun in a current US military flap holster was "concealed" requiring the carrier to have a CCW, the defendant in that case accepted a plea that did not set legal precedent. I would have never thought in a million years that a gun carried in that type of holster would be considered "concealed"...and the stop was in regards to a man with a gun call.


            Remember the guy carrying an automatic weapon at an Obama rally in Arizona? THAT is someone trying to make a statement or bait the cops.
            I'm sure it was a semi automatic firearm.
            Just pay your dues, and be quiet :-)

            Comment


            • #36
              PA doesnt have have a CCW permit. Its a License To Carry A Firearm. Not a license to act like a [email protected]$$. There is a difference (albet not by PA. law) between open carry in the more rual areas (even outside of Philly) than open carry inside the city. You will set off alarms by OC'ing in the city. And comparable Im just waiting for one of these people to go carrying in a not so great neighborhood and getting shot/killed as away for the law to be changed. Philadelphia should be allowed to creat a distinct law, which is REASONABLE AND PRUDENT and complies with the law and 2nd Amendment about the LTCF that does away with the open carry in the city.
              I don't answer recruitment messages....

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              • #37
                Originally posted by orlandofed5-0 View Post
                Im just waiting for one of these people to go carrying in a not so great neighborhood and getting shot/killed as away for the law to be changed.

                Philadelphia should be allowed to creat a distinct law, which is REASONABLE AND PRUDENT and complies with the law and 2nd Amendment about the LTCF that does away with the open carry in the city.
                Are you actually wishing for somebody to get shot?!?!? What kind of an animal are you? That is NOT cool! Most other people just write their politicians to get a law changed.

                The Banana Republic of Filthadelphia already has its own law, it requires a LCTF to open carry within city limits. The rest of the state does not.

                BTW, Not only does Philly have to deal with the U.S. 2nd amendment, they also must deal with the Pa. 21st amendment.

                As long as the law exists Philly MUST live by it, defend and enforce it just the same as citizens must follows the orders of a LEO because it is law. There are many laws on the books out there that many people do and don't care for, we don't have to like them but we all sure as hell have to follow them, even the government. This is a hallmark of a civilized society.

                Philly wishes they were there own state as it is, they even create their own tax codes for heavens sake.
                Firefighters tease cops, cops tease firefighters, it's the natural order of things!

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by biodole
                  1. This is a slippery slope. Giving police the right to stop anyone open carrying, forcing them to law down prone, disarming them, and even handcuffing them until they can verify their open carry status is extremely close to violating human rights issues. The reason I say this is because, if the law permits gun owners to carry guns openly with a license - how does that differ from operating a motor car with a license? It doesn't. Are we allowed to stop someone JUST to verify that they have a driver's license? Absolutely not. There needs to be an infraction first, or some reason for the stop, and some basis for reasonable suspicion in order to go after that person and find if they have a permit and if it is valid. If not, the police if Philly are just going to shake everyone down who has open carry and eventually force them to stop open carrying which is a violation of their rights.
                  Everyone goes for the Driver's License argument. It's more like someone parking in a handicap parking spot. Unlike a driver's license where the majority of people have them, an open carry gun permit in Philly is the minority, like people with handicap parking permits.

                  If an officer is responsible for ensuring that only people with handicap permits park in the handicap spots, should he then have to wait to see if there is a different infraction before he investigates if someone is parked legally?

                  Maybe the laws should be revised and like handicap plates, open carriers should be required to wear their permits around their necks or something.
                  “Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on.” - Robert F. Kennedy.

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                  • #39
                    What are you talking about?

                    the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.



                    Originally posted by vincelli View Post
                    There is no "right" to open carry. Even in the jurisdictions which allow it, it is a privilege (which CAN be taken away).

                    The 2nd Ammendment guarantees that citizens (barring extreme circumstances such as felons, mentally incompetent, etc.) have the right to possess firearms; it DOES NOT guarantee that said citizens can possess them in any fashion they choose.

                    While I agree that in most current OC places the fashion/method of possession hasn't yet been solidified or ruled on, if the OCers keep this crap up it will be due to public outrage.

                    Think about it this way: in the current OC mindset, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a group of people carrying AR's and AK's strapped across their chest with a tactical sling, through a highly populated shopping mall. Do you REALLY believe that will go over well? Do you NOT realize what the response will be?

                    I can guarantee you one thing, if such an incident occurs and the public is later informed that charges could not be brought against those individuals because they did not violate the "letter of the law" the outrage will be so dramatic that you will see the immediate passage of legislation outlawing it.

                    My biggest concern is that the legislatue will once again over-react and go too far in stripping away gun-rights, and possibly threaten reasonable concealed carry.

                    This is where we are headed thanks to the OC folks. It's just a matter of time...

                    -V
                    Chuck

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by vincelli View Post
                      The point you are missing is that the actions of this individual were ABNORMAL (as in, not normal).
                      I wasn't talking about the moron who failed to comply at the Autozone and was waiting for confrontation but a generalized case of detaining open carry folks absent of reasonable suspicion. If its abnormal than that might be reasonable suspicion when taken in totality with other facts (high crime area, close proximity to schools, 911 call), but the point I was making was that absent of things that would be reasonable suspicion, detaining an individual to check licensing is the slippery Constitutional slope.

                      AFAIK, abnormal in and of itself may or may not constitute reasonable suspicion. For instance, in my state the guidelines for DUI checkpoints say making a legal traffic maneuver to avoid the checkpoint does not rise to the level of reasonable suspicion and the individual can't be stopped solely because he/she avoided it. But it is still abnormal none-the-less. Taken in totality with other circumstances (for instances an illegal traffic maneuver) it would be RS.

                      Like it or not, legal or not, the open carry of a firearm is almost unheard of in Philly. [ Couple this with the fact that unlicensed possession of a firearm (which is considered a Deadly Weapon under law) is a criminal act, and there is reasonable suspicion for the Investigative Detention.
                      I foresee the NRA or even the ACLU (they have in the past, but far rarer than the NRA) taking on a case like this in the future... not this moron's but someone under similar circumstances who complies with the LEO's orders. I don't think either would take on the case of this moron, because people like him ultimately weaken gun rights.
                      Last edited by eyesopen; 05-23-2011, 03:42 PM.
                      The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield, and government to gain ground." - Thomas Jefferson

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Charlie Brown View Post
                        What are you talking about?

                        the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
                        Cases have yet to define what the extent of that right is. They already have held that the right is not one to carry any weapon in any manner anwhere or at any time.

                        In Texas, openly carrying a pistol is illegal. If you think that violates your constitutional rights, you should challenge the law in cour.
                        Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
                        Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity. -- Albert Einstein

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          The kid is a ******. He was trying to stir ****.

                          That being said, when did it become acceptable to detain somebody absent reasonable suspicion? Maybe the officer was responding to a report of a crazy guy with a gun. Maybe somebody told the officer that the guy was unholstering the weapon and pointing it at things. I don't know. But, I doubt it because that would likely have been said by now. Instead, we have a PD and a feaking DA Office telling us that they don't give a crap what state law says, and that they will interpret Terry versus Ohio in their own way. This is a bad thing. Some of you have think about this a bit more deeply.
                          Chuck

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                          • #43
                            I don't have to worry about that. I carry when I choose and I don't need a permit. But, anybody (other than a felon) can get a CCW in Texas. So, nobody's rights are infringed. In PA, you can't carry concealed. The only way to bear arms legally is to carry them openly. That's what the guy did. He also had the requisite license and offered it to the officer. So, he does have the right to bear a firearm (it wasn't an AR-15, it was a handgun) and he exercized that right in compliance with his state's law. What's the issue? The issue is that we (law enforcement collectively) cannot just decide that we will detain people just because we don't like their actions. We have to actually believe that their actions are illegal. RAS to believe that a person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime is still the standard under Terry versus Ohio, is it not?


                            Originally posted by DAL View Post
                            Cases have yet to define what the extent of that right is. They already have held that the right is not one to carry any weapon in any manner anwhere or at any time.

                            In Texas, openly carrying a pistol is illegal. If you think that violates your constitutional rights, you should challenge the law in cour.
                            Chuck

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I'm a bit confused: are y'all absolutely sure there's NO concealed carry in PA?

                              http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/pennsylvania.pdf
                              http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/crime.aspx?id=184
                              (That second link specifically mentions "...a valid concealed firearm license from Pennsylvania...")
                              Lt. Col. Grace - "Lt. Murphey, why are you all dressed up to mack on the ladies?"
                              Me - "Sir, you just answered your own question."

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                              • #45
                                No concealed carry in Philadelphia.

                                With a permit, you can carry concealed in Pennsylvania or openly in a Class 1 city (Philadelphia).

                                Originally posted by Murf425 View Post
                                I'm a bit confused: are y'all absolutely sure there's NO concealed carry in PA?

                                http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/pennsylvania.pdf
                                http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/crime.aspx?id=184
                                (That second link specifically mentions "...a valid concealed firearm license from Pennsylvania...")
                                Chuck

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