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Arizona Sheriff Cites Flood of Border Agents Confirming Feds' No-Apprehension Policy

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  • BigPat
    replied
    Originally posted by La Linea View Post
    Well, Big Pat, you say you don't have an opinion because you haven't read the book, then give your opinion that Lee couldn't really know what he's talking about, because he wrote the book a while back.
    You apparently misread my post. I never said that the book was invalid or gave any opinion on it at all. I simply said that the book was based upon the experiences of somebody working in that area 10-15 years ago. The situation is not nearly the same as it was then. Dever's comments are about what he is claiming is happening right now. The situation is not the same as it was 10 years ago, or 5 years ago, or even 3 years ago. Although the border is far from being secure, the improvement is very significant. If you have worked out there as long as you say you have you know I am right.

    I understand you having to defend your agency. That's alright and even admirable, but I will tell you that I have had agents here in Cochise county tell me the same thing you're calling Dever a liar about.
    If an Agent has told you that we are under orders not to arrest anybody than they are lying to you. Agents tend to complain when they have to work right at the border line. Sometimes if you are working on the line there are valid tactical reasons to TBS a group. We want them to enter in a place where we can catch them. As far as Larry Dever goes, he talks to us to our faces telling us how he supports us, but he hates our bosses in D.C. He is being deliberately dishonest here. He thinks that his political posturing will somehow hurt the President and make him look bad. It won't though, and it only makes those of us who are busting our asses to catch stuff look bad.

    So how does that work? Am I lying too? I've been here a long time as has Larry Dever and the situation on this border is an unholy mess, especially east of Douglas. And that sir, Janet Napolitano and Barack Obama notwithstanding, is a fact..
    All I can say is that if you really think that the situation at the border near Douglas has not dramatically improved in the last 10 years then you obviously aren't as knowledgeable about the situation as you think you are. If you work in the area of 80 East and you don't notice the dramatically increased presence in that area then you aren't paying attention.

    What agency do you work for?

    Leave a comment:


  • BigPat
    replied
    Originally posted by HCSO511 View Post
    Ive seen this exact thing happen. Even had a ICE agent tell me we were not qaulified to determine if someone was an illegal and that no local LE should ever detain a suspected illegal. That Director has just gotten caught in his own words and doesnt like it.
    ICE and the Border Patrol are completely different entities. ICE does a lot of things I disagree with, but usually manpower and a lack of detention space are the big issues with them. As far as in Cochise County AZ, I know for a fact that CCSO calls BP when they have illegal aliens and we ALWAYS respond.

    Leave a comment:


  • La Linea
    replied
    Well, Big Pat, you say you don't have an opinion because you haven't read the book, then give your opinion that Lee couldn't really know what he's talking about, because he wrote the book a while back. I understand you having to defend your agency. That's alright and even admirable, but I will tell you that I have had agents here in Cochise county tell me the same thing you're calling Dever a liar about. So how does that work? Am I lying too? I've been here a long time as has Larry Dever and the situation on this border is an unholy mess, especially east of Douglas. And that sir, Janet Napolitano and Barack Obama notwithstanding, is a fact..

    Leave a comment:


  • HCSO511
    replied
    Ive seen this exact thing happen. Even had a ICE agent tell me we were not qaulified to determine if someone was an illegal and that no local LE should ever detain a suspected illegal. That Director has just gotten caught in his own words and doesnt like it.

    Leave a comment:


  • BigPat
    replied
    Originally posted by La Linea View Post
    Let me recommend a book on the subject at hand, it's called "The Reaper's Line", written by Lee Morgan a couple years ago. Check it out at the library or buy it, but read it, it is a brutally honest book written by a former Border Patrolman, and Customs Special Agent, stationed for years in Douglas, Arizona. I would hazard a guess that Big Pat is not a fan, but try to read it anyway.
    I haven't read it. so I can't give an opinion one way or the other. That book is based upon the experiences of somebody that worked out there 10-15 years ago. A LOT has changed since then, and the BP does not operate the same way we did 5 or 10 years ago. Stories of what happened a decade ago do not validate Dever's comments about what he says is happening right now. Dever has been Sheriff for years and he knows full well how much things have improved from what they once were. He is being deliberately dishonest.

    Leave a comment:


  • La Linea
    replied
    Let me recommend a book on the subject at hand, it's called "The Reaper's Line", written by Lee Morgan a couple years ago. Check it out at the library or buy it, but read it, it is a brutally honest book written by a former Border Patrolman, and Customs Special Agent, stationed for years in Douglas, Arizona. I would hazard a guess that Big Pat is not a fan, but try to read it anyway.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bearcat357
    replied
    Sheriff Tells Congress That Border Patrol Agents Ordered to Reduce Arrests

    By Jana Winter
    Published May 03, 2011
    FoxNews.com


    The Border Patrol’s practice of detecting but not apprehending illegal immigrants -- known as “Turn Back South” -- is in effect far north of the U.S.-Mexico border, Arizona Sheriff Larry Dever claimed in congressional testimony Tuesday morning.

    “It appears, according to numerous reports from current and former border agents, that this practice has gravitated many miles north of the border. That means that, regardless of proximity to the border, people who are detected but not caught are considered to be “Turned Back South,” Dever said in his written testimony before the Homeland Security Subcommittee on Border and Maritime Security.

    Last month, FoxNews.com first reported that Dever said he’d been told by Border Patrol officials, including at least one senior supervisor, that they have been ordered to reduce and to sometimes stop arresting people attempting to cross into the U.S. illegally.

    Homeland Security officials, including Border Patrol Chief Michael Fisher, have repeatedly denied these claims, but a flood of current and retired Border Patrol agents from across the country continue to come forward with details of their own that support Dever’s initial remarks.

    Dever leveled another new charge: That TBS-ing is going on within the American judicial system.

    “There are policies in place that establish thresholds for quantities of drugs and numbers of illegal aliens before consideration for prosecution can be entertained. In at least one Federal District in Texas, if you are caught smuggling less than 750 kilos of marijuana, you will not be subjected to prosecution,” Dever wrote, citing several examples.

    “TBS occurs at many levels and is quickly assimilated into the understanding of the bad guys on how to game the system.”

    Committee Vice Chairman Ben Quayle pressed Dever on prosecutorial smuggling thresholds toward the end of the 90-minute hearing.

    Dever responded with a case in which someone in the U.S. illegally had been deported 23 times but never charged.

    On Tuesday, during the same hearing, Border Patrol Deputy Chief Ron Vitiello wrote in his testimony:
    “While there is still work to be done, every key measure shows we are making significant progress along the Southwest border. Border Patrol apprehensions have decreased 36 percent in the past two years, and are less than a third of what they were at their peak.”
    He was not questioned by committee members about TBS-ing, though that was not the focus of the hearing on cooperation between local and federal law enforcement at the border.

    After the hearing, Dever told FoxNews.com that he thought the hearing had gone “okay.”

    “They could’ve been a little more difficult. They could’ve asked more difficult questions,” Dever said, adding that he’d hoped the committee members would’ve asked more about the TBS part of his submitted testimony.

    “That was something that they could’ve delved into, but they didn’t,” he said.
    “It was pretty much hands off, it wasn’t a game of hardball.”


    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...est=latestnews

    Leave a comment:


  • yellowreef
    replied
    Never seen someone get in trouble for arresting aliens instead of turning them back south. The only time I have seen people directed to turn something south is shift change while waiting for the oncoming units to be in place. This prevents a crossing at a time when appropriate response could be compromised. Its called tactics, not "hidden agenda".

    Leave a comment:


  • BigPat
    replied
    Originally posted by Floyd_jones View Post
    Pete Blaber said it best "Always listen to the guy on the ground'
    Good point. Keep in mind which people taking part in this discussion are working on the ground for the BP and what they are saying.

    Leave a comment:


  • BigPat
    replied
    This whole hubbub stems from the fact that Sheriffs Babeu and Dever are trying to publicize the border security issue to further their own political ends. It appears that Babeu is prepping himself for a future House or Senate bid. What they are trying to do is make the case that the border is more out of control than ever and position themselves as some kind of saviors of border security. The problem is that the facts don't support the claim that the border is more out of control than ever. Traffic is down a lot. There are whole sections of the Border where Agents are bored to tears. Tucson sector is far from being "secured", but the traffic is way down from what it was.

    There are many reasons for this. The economy has still not fully recovered, and the new home construction industry, which employed a ton of illegal aliens, is still doing horribly. The mass hiring pushes of Border Patrol Agents have helped tremendously. The fencing and vehicle barriers have helped.The prosecution initiatives have also helped. We used to have to release every non-Mexican alien we caught with papers and they would disappear into the U.S. That ridiculous practice finally ended a few years ago. The Mexican aliens we caught used to be processed for a "VR" in a couple hours and kicked back right near where they entered to try again. That practice has finally come to an end too. A lot of illegal aliens used to return home to Mexico every year and just come back again at the beginning of the next year. Increased enforcement has them staying put in the U.S. now, further reducing entries. While Obama and Napolitano didn't have much to do with any of this, it is still a fact that the border situation has continued to improve under their watch. They haven't gutted border enforcement as many feared that they would. They have pretty much left us alone. Napolitano pushed for and got a pay grade increase for us. Obama even pushed through another initiative to hire more Border Patrol Agents.

    There are a lot of truthful criticisms that could be made of immigration and border enforcement policy. Even though traffic is down substantially, the border in much of Arizona is far from being secure The level of smuggling activity and illegal alien traffic is still unacceptably high. There are plenty of illegal aliens that came to the United States before the increased enforcement. There are millions who were released under the old policy who never went to their hearing and just disappeared. A ton of people have overstayed visas and they usually get away with it without consequence. There are far too many sanctuary cities in the U.S. The immigration court system is broken. Worksite enforcement is minimal and almost nonexistent. These are all truthful criticisms that could be made.

    Instead, some have chosen to make a criticism that is false. There is no policy from higher telling us not to arrest illegals.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cyber_Saint
    replied
    Originally posted by ten08
    I would have to wonder why they would invite BooBoo to Washington, other than his friendship with John McCian. He has nothing to add. Same would be for Arpaio. i seem to recall 8 bbodies found near exit 122 almost a decade ago but to hear him talk all this just started. It is plain old Politics, who else testified?

    When will somebody make the first arrest under SB 1070 of an employer? That part of the law is intact

    From this picture you would wrongly assume the Sheriff was in his own jurisdiction
    Ha! I don't think any agency wants to be the first one on that. Maybe MCSO, but we'll see I guess.

    I like that there is attention being called to the border, but when one looks at Border Patrol apprehension statistics over the last 20 years or so, you see how much more out of control it was. And then consider that just a few years ago the Border Patrol had less than 10,000 agents instead of the 20,000 we now have. By no means am I saying that it is under control now, but y'all get my point.

    As per people discussing the Sheriff's and 287G, in my opinion, its not their responsibility to be sacking up illegals at meat packing plants. If they run into illegals in the course of their duties, then they have the authority to arrest them. If a Sheriff wants to raid a meat packing plant then I am all for it, but if I were a tax payer in a part of a county serviced by the Sheriffs, I would be angry if my 911 call wasn't responded to quickly or we kept having burglaries in the neighborhood all the while the Sheriffs were out busting illegal workers. Its a matter of priorities and primary responsibilities. Especially when there is a large Border Patrol presence in the county already.

    In the end, isn't this all a matter of a Sheriff saying that the BP isn't doing its job and the BP calling bull**** on his statement? I've heard stories from senior agents about this and that happening back in the day, and I have my misgivings about some ways that upper management might work things, but per my personal experience, I've never been told to "TBS" anyone. I would be burned at the stake by my supervisors if I did that. I've worked out of four different stations on various details, and never once did I hear a supervisor instruct anyone to "TBS" a group.

    Groups TBS themselves all the time. Agents get on the group and the group can often see the agents vehicles' off in the distance and decide to turn around and head back to Mexico before the Agents catch them. Same effect as TBS'ng a group but completely different than going hands on and then telling the group to go back south.
    Last edited by Cyber_Saint; 04-25-2011, 02:02 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sgt. Slaughter
    replied
    Originally posted by Marcus Antonius View Post
    It definitely is a federal duty. But both of these agencies are covered under 287(g). So I think what ten08 was saying was that these Sheriffs could be working on their respective counties, rather than pointing the finger at the Border Patrol.
    That's the whole point, though. He talks like they're not screening anyone during intake or that they turn a blind eye to immigration while in the same breath complaining that they're grandstanding and can't know anything about border security because they're not directly ON the international border.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marcus Antonius
    replied
    Originally posted by Sgt. Slaughter View Post
    Probably because deportation is a federal duty.


    So, which one do you want? Counties to enforce everything BUT immigration-related issues or do you want them snatching up people outside meat-packing plants?
    It definitely is a federal duty. But both of these agencies are covered under 287(g). So I think what ten08 was saying was that these Sheriffs could be working on their respective counties, rather than pointing the finger at the Border Patrol.

    Leave a comment:


  • LaPlaca
    replied
    Originally posted by Cyber_Saint View Post
    Its a question of honesty on part of the government not to mention national security. The only way DHS has of tracking border crossings is US Border Patrol apprehension statistics. If you "TBS" them then they wre never apprehended and on paper, they never entered the US, even though they will just cross again after the agents leave the area. The Sheriff is alleging that the Border Patrol is doing that to keep apprehension numbers low so taht DHS can falsely state that the border is under control.
    +1

    Oldest scam in the book. If its not reported, its not happening...

    Leave a comment:


  • Floyd_jones
    replied
    Pete Blaber said it best "Always listen to the guy on the ground'

    Leave a comment:

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