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  • #61
    Originally posted by ryker View Post
    Depending on length of service, air traffic controllers receive 13 to 26 days of paid vacation and 13 days of paid sick leave each year, in addition to life insurance and health benefits.
    point of order. they don't "receive" insurance and health benefits. they are offered access to group policy rates for which they must pay (self AND self-and-family are out-of-pocket costs; not provided by the company like some businesses do for self-only).

    Again - just how hard can the job duty be when it's now clear that one atc can perform the duties of his buddy who is sleeping?
    How stressful can a job be, when you can do your job and your buddies job while he naps? Or you can do your job while watching a movie?
    it's not clear that those things can be done. that's why there are standing policies and orders in place against them. the problem is more one of professionalism than it is of actions that can be done (properly) by someone overpaid. it's that there is a significant minority within the ATC community that act like middle schoolers while sucking down $120+ a year.

    some examples:
    they sign off on things and if confronted about a breach of compliance with the content will claim they never read it (just signed it to get it out of the way) and expect such a response to clear them of any responsibility.

    they get computers confiscated by IT security because they surfed porn sites on night shifts and then try to argue their way out of it by claiming that the spirit of the regulation/policy wasn't violated because no one else saw it (so couldn't be offended).

    they try to install unauthorized software on government equipment.

    they add additional hard drives to computers that are locked down so they "personal configuration" on that new drive can be used to bypass the lock downs put in place because of the history of their actions (like above).

    and the response from management?

    none

    we need to get them a new computer because security has the old one.

    just rebuild the computer. they broke it and need it working again.

    we need to give that drive back to them. it's not government property.

    it's as much an issue of management abdicating all power to the union as anything else.
    Last edited by Bounce; 04-20-2011, 08:51 AM.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by ryker View Post
      As if nobody else works a crazy schedule. Most all LE field works crazy night shift and can never really get a decent sleep pattern. Along with typical nightshift issues that all people deal with such as doctor appt, kids, wife, daytime only events. LE will have cases keeping them late into the morning. Court cases right in the middle of thier normal sleep time. Training is always done during your sleep time. Vehicle repair completed for free during your sleep time.


      ,

      And yet you sleep half of your shift?!


      I may fall asleep and wreck a patrol car killing myself or dozens of others. A mailbox or ditch is more common. . Worse yet other thAn personally death is stress from lawsuits for mAking a mistake. Don't be fatigued on a traffic stop and say a curse word. Have had court for 6hrs that am after a long night shift and be fatigued to not quickly hear or respond to the semi truck that running into yor car while on a traffic stop.


      .

      How many ATC have been killed this year doing their job duties? How many ATC wear armor vest? Carry 20-25lbs of gear on their waste?

      Your union contact even demands your water be tested... Lol.
      Dude, seriously, is it a contest or something?

      Again, I've done BOTH. They are two TOTALLY different jobs. Air Traffic Control was way more stressful to me. Not that police work isn't stressful...But again, they're different jobs, different kinds of stresses. If you want to make more money, find another job. If you want a better schedule, find another job. If you don't want to wear an "armor vest" and "20-25 lbs of gear", find another job. Good grief.

      EDIT: After looking over your posts again, you sound like you failed out of the ATC Academy and are holding a grudge. Come on.
      Last edited by tc215; 04-20-2011, 08:54 AM.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by ryker View Post
        The Air Traffic Control pay system classifies each air traffic facility into one of eight levels with corresponding pay bands. Under this pay system, controllers' salaries are determined by the rating of the facility. Higher ratings usually mean higher controller salaries and greater demands on the controller's judgment, skill, and decision-making ability.
        Just like any career ladder job in the federal government. I can name a ton of positions that have career ladders of GS-7/9/11/12/13.

        Depending on length of service, air traffic controllers receive 13 to 26 days of paid vacation and 13 days of paid sick leave each year, in addition to life insurance and health benefits. Controllers also can retire at an earlier age and with fewer years of service than other Federal employees. Air traffic controllers are eligible to retire at age 50 with 20 years of service as an active air traffic controller or after 25 years of active service at any age. There is a mandatory retirement age of 56 for controllers who manage air traffic. However, Federal law provides for exemptions to the mandatory age of 56, up to age 61 in certain cases, but controllers must have exceptional skills and experience. Earnings and benefits for controllers working in contract towers or flight service stations may vary. Many air traffic controllers hold union membership, primarily with the National Air Traffic Controllers Association.
        I find it funny that people are criticizing the benefits that ATCs receive when they are nearly identical to the benefits that I receive as a federal employee. Yes they get paid more, but that is a skilled job that requires a substantial amount of education to complete. No one complains that an IT specialist or network administrator for the feds gets GS-13 or GS-14 pay.
        Last edited by TheKansan; 04-20-2011, 09:06 AM.
        What is Perseverance?
        -Perseverance is commitment, hard work, patience, endurance.
        -Perseverance is being able to bear difficulties calmly and without complaint.
        -PERSEVERANCE IS TRYING AGAIN AND AGAIN.


        BOP - BPA - ICE

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        • #64
          he only thing I've flown was an old Cessna. So I have a question for modern planes pilots.. Inside your cockpit do you have any radar to see range and elv of nearby planes? I know the ATC controls your placement but if they make a mistake do you have a radar or at the very least a warning light
          Aircraft that have at least 10 seats are required to carry a basic form of TCAS (does not tell the pilot to climb or descend to avoid a collision) while aircraft with 30+ seats have to carry the more advanced TCAS II (which does what TCAS I does not). TCAS stands for Traffic Collision Avoidance System and it is not a radar but what it does is pickup transponder signals from other aircraft and then display the aircraft's position and altitude relative to your aircraft so if the other plane plane does not have a working transponder TCAS will not pick it up on your plane.

          Life is what you make of it

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Bearcat357 View Post
            Must be nice..... Everywhere I've been associated as a LEO they'd be fired on the spot for napping on the job........

            I've seen Supervisors/Sheriffs/Chiefs fire folks for doing it.....and have fired folks myself for doing it.....
            I understand but our brass realizes the points previously made here by others regarding the negative impact on performance and on the individual working goofy night hours. It works for us. When it is slow one or two out of the five or six working crash out for a few hours. If it begins to get busy they get up and and cover their original spots. There has NEVER been an operational problem related to this policy.

            Now if someone were to fall asleep at their station and miss radio traffic or 911 calls, that's an entirely different story...
            "I think it takes a particular coward to criticize procedures that you don't understand; particularly when they apply to places that you don't have the bravery to go" - Battalion Chief John Sullivan, FDNY

            "Keep your booger hook off the bang switch!" - Rev1

            "If you reload like old people [email protected], then you need to be behind something that stops bullets." - Blackdog F4i


            IGNORE = since9, justme001, opencarry, bsd13, asullivan, okjoe, Patrick Sander, CJ616

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            • #66
              Originally posted by FireCop604 View Post
              I understand but our brass realizes the points previously made here by others regarding the negative impact on performance and on the individual working goofy night hours. It works for us. When it is slow one or two out of the five or six working crash out for a few hours. If it begins to get busy they get up and and cover their original spots. There has NEVER been an operational problem related to this policy.

              Now if someone were to fall asleep at their station and miss radio traffic or 911 calls, that's an entirely different story...
              Like I said, must be nice.... It would never, ever happen back home...... even in the smaller places I worked where you don't hear radio traffic for 2-3 hours coming from patrols or dispatch. It just the way it is back there.....

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by tc215 View Post
                Your body doesn't care how much money you make. I'm not sure if they still do this, but when I worked for the FAA, they were big on mandatory overtime, but they would do it in split shifts. i.e., come in and work for a few hours, go home for a few hours, come back in and work a few more hours. Couple that with the goofy schedule, and you have a recipe for disaster.

                EDIT: Not trying to stick up or make excuses for anyone sleeping on the job...But there are some people making judgements when they have zero knowledge of the job...Sound familiar?
                That's a load of bull. You FIND a way to stay awake.
                I yell "PIKACHU" before I tase someone.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Rudy8116 View Post
                  That's a load of bull. You FIND a way to stay awake.
                  What's a load of bull?

                  I guess they could have an FM radio going in the background to help stay awake...No, wait, that's not allowed anymore. Maybe a crossword puzzle...No, that's not ok either. Maybe a TV? No, can't do that. No more cell phones on the floor, either.

                  You can't do anything else other than stare at the scope. But I'm sure you knew that.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by tc215 View Post
                    What's a load of bull?

                    I guess they could have an FM radio going in the background to help stay awake...No, wait, that's not allowed anymore. Maybe a crossword puzzle...No, that's not ok either. Maybe a TV? No, can't do that. No more cell phones on the floor, either.

                    You can't do anything else other than stare at the scope. But I'm sure you knew that.
                    I think what Rudy is getting at is that you stay awake even if the only thing you can do is to chew on your tongue and slap yourself in the face...

                    Because that's how we do it in America!! Nose to the grindstone, pull up your bootstraps, buckle down and git-r-done!

                    Which is absurd, but that's often the prevailing mindset when it comes to Americans and work. We'd be a lot better off if we took a page from the Spanish and the Italians and started having afternoon siestas (assuming that's still practiced over there)
                    He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High
                    shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
                    - Psalm 91:1

                    On Ignore - A few folks.

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                    • #70
                      Unless I overlooked, it, that was never mentioned. Maybe that should be something brought up with their boss.
                      I yell "PIKACHU" before I tase someone.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by TheKansan View Post
                        No one complains that an IT specialist or network administrator for the feds gets GS-13 or GS-14 pay.
                        that's because, in spite of all the formal training and education it takes to get to a GS14 in IT, it still pays HALF of what an ATC gets with a HS diploma and a year of specialized training... and an IT person who can no longer do the job they hired in for has 2 years of "save pay" to find a job of equal pay or gets cut to the pay of the job they land in. Meanwhile ATCs who haven't/won't certify for 15 years and more are still sucking down $120k a year to fill coke machines and file paperwork.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Dingo990 View Post
                          Yes, cops work jacked up shifts also.

                          And cops will catch a quick nap on the job... maybe not intentionally, but I've walked by many officers typing up a report and watched them nod off for a minute or two.
                          Sounds like those officers picked a bad spot to do their reports if you could walk up on them.

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                          • #73
                            Geez o pete, this is the 21st century, not the middle ages.

                            We understand that the human body is not designed to handle split shifts and moving from shift to shift. It causes stress, stress causes weight gain, both put strain on the heart.

                            What is wrong with working a straight 8 hour shift, day in day out? Thats what I do, thats what I did in Customs. Mandatory overtime, it happens, voluntary overtime as well.

                            But we all need a set sleep schedule. It may change from time to time based on necessity, but to make it mandatory is stupid. Just because your supervisor had to do it in his day because his supervisor had to do it in his day...

                            Every officer, Every ATC, ANYBODY who works a stressful job needs to be able to have a set work schedule so they can get sufficient sleep. They also need to be able to take a power nap from time to time.

                            Oh, believe me, I have had to do it. Don't want to pay for it? Fine, make them clock out for their lunch and take a 30 minute nap.
                            Though their numbers are many, as the grass upon the field, we will count them at the end of the day.

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                            • #74
                              set schedules are only possible for people volunteering for evening shifts (in accordance with the negotiated contracts). that means if swing and grave fully staff with volunteers then everyone can stay put. if someone chooses to move out of permanent nights (or staffing isn't completely addressed with volunteers for permanent swing/grave) then that means everyone has to go into rotation to fill the remaining slots. no one can volunteer for permanent days if the job is a 24/7 job.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by ProtectandServe View Post
                                Sounds like those officers picked a bad spot to do their reports if you could walk up on them.
                                The only place we have the ability to type reports is the squad bay

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